When do we consider gear "removed"?
By RAW, is the moment a piece of gear removed the moment a bonus is lost, or at least resetting to the 24hr temporary period?
What about bathing, sleeping, needing to dress formally? Being kidnapped or jailed? Do we hand wave away the minutiae? Do we rule the item is still in "possession" of the character?
If it takes 24 hrs to become permanent, does it take 24 hrs to fade back to temporary? I've recently been presented with the question and on inspection I'm stumped?
You do not get the benefit of any magical item that you do not possess or wear. As for taking a bath those things are handwaved during a game. If someone specifically says they take off all of their magic items to take a bath then the GM can decide to be very strict or he can allow the player to keep the magic of the item. The problem however is that if the item is forcibly removed the player can claim to still hold the magic. In that case the GM should say that even though you will have to invoke suspension of belief, taking a bath will not penalize you.
The RAW answer is "as soon as the item is removed, the bonus is gone, and the item must be worn for 24 hours to become permanent again".
Since the difference between temporary and permanent ability bonuses is basically negligible, it really doesn't matter.
Pretty much everyone will have their own method of handwaving it. Even though I've never been asked to worry about it, my personal handwave is "if the same item is put back on, it requires a period equal to the time removed to become permanent again, capped at 24 hours".
When it gets removed.
It's why I strictly restrict qualifying for feats through them in my home games. Just washing yourself means 24+h without the feat.
By the rules if you lost the prereq to a feat you still have the feat you just can't use it. By this logic do pretty much handicap TWFer's because otherwise it is very difficult to use strength if you only want enough dex to qualify.
You don't have to take the headband or belt off while taking a bath. Clean the belt or headband while you are bathing. Use prestidigitation to clean the item if whatever is used on your body is not strong enough to clean the magic item.
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There are a few threads where this argument is discussed.
The best solution we have found is to go strictly RAW ;-) when reading this piece: "Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn."
Strictly RAW it don't say 24 continuous hours. Nor that the benefit of it being a permanent bonus cease if you remove the item. But the benefit of the ability enhancement cease when you remove the item.
So, under this interpretation, you must wear and ability enhancement item for 24 hours total to make the enhancement permanent, but those 24 hours can be broken in shorter spans of time.
After the bonus has become permanent you can remove the item, losing the enhancement to the ability score, but keeping the benefit of it being a permanent bonus. When you put on the item again you receive the benefit again and it is a permanent bonus without the need of 24 hour of attunement.
Obviously you can't have only multiple items attuned to the same body slot at the same time.
It is a stretch, but technically it don't violate the rules and allow people to remove headbands and belts without undue problems.
Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed.
Hard requirements:
1) the effect should have duration greater than a day;2) the effect "increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours".
Nowhere it say that the item should be worn for 24 continuous hours.
@Chemlak
It make a difference for spell preparation for spellcaster.
That's a very interesting interpretation of the rules on that one, thank you for sharing. :)
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That's a very interesting interpretation of the rules on that one, thank you for sharing. :)
The original idea wasn't mine. But I found annoying the idea that my character will be constantly wearing a headband and a belt, even when naked, taking a bath or other things, so I like it.
But, on the other hand, I am part of a group of players that after crawling in tunnels filled with undead for 3 days did found a functioning thermal baths in a old temple. We looked each other and said: "It is a trap." "Yes, but you really don't want to use it?"
So we checked for poison and then we did take our baths in turns.
It ended well.
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When it gets removed.
It's why I strictly restrict qualifying for feats through them in my home games. Just washing yourself means 24+h without the feat.By the rules if you lost the prereq to a feat you still have the feat you just can't use it. By this logic do pretty much handicap TWFer's because otherwise it is very difficult to use strength if you only want enough dex to qualify.
You don't have to take the headband or belt off while taking a bath. Clean the belt or headband while you are bathing. Use prestidigitation to clean the item if whatever is used on your body is not strong enough to clean the magic item.
Not only that, but you'd have to do it all over again to reactivate the Power Attack feat.The "24 hour activation" doesn't have anything to do with qualifying for feats. If you have a Str 13, you can take Power Attack. It doesn't matter if you have it naturally, or a +2 from a belt, or even a +4 from a barbarian rage or bull's strength spell--the instant you have the required ability score, you can learn the feat, and you can use the feat as long as you're meeting all the prerequisites (which means you could have a character who can only PA when he's under the effect of a rage or bull's strength spell).
So at least 1 Developer say that you don't need a permanent score to make a feat work.
When it gets removed.
It's why I strictly restrict qualifying for feats through them in my home games. Just washing yourself means 24+h without the feat.By the rules if you lost the prereq to a feat you still have the feat you just can't use it. By this logic do pretty much handicap TWFer's because otherwise it is very difficult to use strength if you only want enough dex to qualify.
You don't have to take the headband or belt off while taking a bath. Clean the belt or headband while you are bathing. Use prestidigitation to clean the item if whatever is used on your body is not strong enough to clean the magic item.
Not only that, but you'd have to do it all over again to reactivate the Power Attack feat.The "24 hour activation" doesn't have anything to do with qualifying for feats. If you have a Str 13, you can take Power Attack. It doesn't matter if you have it naturally, or a +2 from a belt, or even a +4 from a barbarian rage or bull's strength spell--the instant you have the required ability score, you can learn the feat, and you can use the feat as long as you're meeting all the prerequisites (which means you could have a character who can only PA when he's under the effect of a rage or bull's strength spell).So at least 1 Developer say that you don't need a permanent score to make a feat work.
You missed my point. If just have enough to qualify with the item, and then you take the item off then you no longer have access to the feat.
I was reinforcing your point, not confuting it, wraithstrike.
You lose access to the feat if you remove the item, but re-donning it or another item immediately give you access to the feat, there isn't a 24 hour delay.
ok.. :)
I did not know about the lack of a 24 hour delay. That is nice to know.
What I do - and this is of course just a houserule - is have the 24-hour period be a sliding window. It works like this:
If you wear a headband for a week, it's clearly fully operational. Next you take it off for 15 minutes to take a bath. You are down to 23 hours, 45 minutes of "priming window". As such, when you put it back on, you do not benefit from its magic for a further 15 minutes, at which point you have attained a 24-hour window again.
This is similar to the 24-total-hours interpretation above except I do require the wearer to use 24 continuous hours to initially activate the item.
This allows magic belt-users to take a crap without losing their physical stat bonuses. Call me crazy, but I'm sure the devs intended defecation to be permitted.
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I think a lot of people handwave/houserule the RAW in this matter. If the bonuses are lost if they take it off, you should either not have the effect, or gain the penalties for sleeping in armor, or losing it while changing clothes. How many people here can change pants while keeping boots and a belt on?
the sliding-window/timer seems like a good idea, however I prefer to use thge concept of magic works on intent. When someone is going to take a bath, or change clothes, the items are removed with the intent of being only temporary, and often left very close by. I would not consider the effect 'lost' at all. However when someone forces it off you, or steals it from the log it is resting on, or ambushes you when you're in the hot spring, that is when the sliding window would start counting down.
I'm also of the school "I'm the GM and the story comes first", as well as known for ambushing PCs when in camp or in the tavern. I've noticed most players find an encounter or story better when you worry less about the details(we're not playing GURPS for a reason), and more on the drama.
When the party camps next to the hot springs for the heat and a bath; nothing makes a more interesting encounter than a group of bandits or rival party with the same plan.
I think a lot of people handwave/houserule the RAW in this matter. If the bonuses are lost if they take it off, you should either not have the effect, or gain the penalties for sleeping in armor, or losing it while changing clothes. How many people here can change pants while keeping boots and a belt on?
the sliding-window/timer seems like a good idea, however I prefer to use thge concept of magic works on intent. When someone is going to take a bath, or change clothes, the items are removed with the intent of being only temporary, and often left very close by. I would not consider the effect 'lost' at all. However when someone forces it off you, or steals it from the log it is resting on, or ambushes you when you're in the hot spring, that is when the sliding window would start counting down.
I'm also of the school "I'm the GM and the story comes first", as well as known for ambushing PCs when in camp or in the tavern. I've noticed most players find an encounter or story better when you worry less about the details(we're not playing GURPS for a reason), and more on the drama.
When the party camps next to the hot springs for the heat and a bath; nothing makes a more interesting encounter than a group of bandits or rival party with the same plan.
Boots don't need 24 hours to get an affect. The belt does not need to be one that holds your pants up. It can just go over your pants. :)
But in all seriousness the intent is to stop you from hotswapping items. That is why unless you say "I am taking the belt off", most GM's won't enforce, and I agree with you that much minutiae is not really needed.<--This is me supporting you.