There's already a youthful appearance spell. Just have the first spell be called "greater youthful appearance" and have it function as youthful appearance except the subject adjusts their physical ability scores.
I'm not a fan of the second one at all.
1) Immortality is generally a 20th level ability. This really should be a 9th level spell at least.
2) The diminishing returns risk is rather complicated to calculate. I don't really understand it myself.
3) It's generally not cool design to have a spell potentially kill its own caster.
It still should be a 9th level spell as that's something that dramatically alters a fundamental aspect of reality, something that would change societies. Extending someone's lifespan is something WISH can't do. The only way to extend your lifespan is to either cast reincarnation (which relies on you dying and becoming a completely different person), gaining mythic tiers, gaining 20th level ability, or obtaining an artifact like the sun orchid elixir.
Would it maybe be more feasible to just have the party quest for some ambrosia or a fountain of youth?
Would it maybe be more feasible to just have the party quest for some ambrosia or a fountain of youth?No these are for important Npcs and rare wizards with a warped idea of appropriate motivation/lessons not for party immortality.
If that's the case, then it should an artifact, some kind of ritual, or an NPC-only ability. Spells exist in design space where it's expected both PCs and NPCs can use them.
Immortality (defined as unaging) is essentially meaningless in terms of character power level. There's no reason a wish shouldn't be able to do it.
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Is it a problem if PCs use Fountain of Youth? I don't think so. In which case it's fine as a spell that anyone has access to without going on some kind of quest.
It would have world-building implications if casters can extend their lives starting at mid-high levels, but I don't think it overly devalues true immortality because the years will eventually catch up with the caster. Without doing the exact math, it looks like most casters would only get a few extra decades out of the spell - which might be enough for them to find true immortality, but it certainly isn't a replacement for it.
I'm not sure I'd adjust mental attributes with either, however.
Why don't you make it a duration spell that slows time for the guy. Like the timeless/slow time plainar trait, even timeless has the catchup clause so why you could cast it indefinitely one dispel could be disastrous.
Timeless
On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.
Flowing Time
On some planes, the flow of time is consistently faster or slower. One may travel to another plane, spend a year there, and then return to the Material Plane to find that only 6 seconds have elapsed. Everything on the plane returned to is only a few seconds older. But for that traveler and the items, spells, and effects working on him, that year away was entirely real. When designating how time works on planes with flowing time, put the Material Plane's flow of time first, followed by the flow in the other plane.
I've never heard of humans not being viable because their lifespan is shorter than other races. Inter-racial relationships serve as the only time I've ever seen that come up -- where a PC worried they'd outlive their lover. Seeking an artifact that grants immortality should be a quest. Heck, an entire campaign can revolve around it. Many extraordinary historical people spent their entire lives searching for immortality. Even Sir Issac Newton, the man who invented calculus and our modern understanding of physics, sought the Philosopher's Stone. Immortality is not really something I would ever consider devaluing in my campaign.
Immortality (defined as unaging) is essentially meaningless in terms of character power level. There's no reason a wish shouldn't be able to do it.
This isn't a video game, Zhayne. There's more to spells (and other character options) than power level. Consider if there existed a 1st level spell that teleports you 10-feet away. In terms of character power level, this spell would be pathetically weak -- no PC would prepare it. However, such a spell would dramatically change the game setting. Every prison and bank would have to be underground. Every prison cell would require manacles. It would be unfeasible to have a business with expensive inventory unless you had the magical expertise of 4th level spells. Yes, there's a big difference between talking about whether a spell should be 6th or 9th level, but my point remains the same. You have to think of spells more than in terms of power level, but also the implications it has on story and setting.
More than three nations in the Golerion campaign hinge on the fact that immortality is extremely difficult to obtain. Thuvia's entire economy thrives on the sun orchid elixir, regarded as the greatest alchemical achievement in the world. Razmir's cult is on the verge of collapse because he's still mortal, despite his immense god-like power.
Honestly I've never understood why immortality is so high level given how little effect it has on most games. However since there already high level ones in place I wanted to keep this representative of a progression in power.
@Weirdo
I wanted to a potential exploit of them getting the mental bonus for aging over and over. This way you are physically younger with the associated difficulty of that age in controlling their emotions. Yep it'll vary a bit depending on luck but you literally can't have it cast more than 20 times and after 10 you have a better than 50% chance to fail base.@Onyxlion
I never considered that however it requires you live on another plane.
You missunderstood, I'm saying create a spell that mimics that feature on you. I just used the plane traits as things that spells can already do.
Eh
Timeless
Wiz 6
Target:Personal/touch
Duration: 2hr/level
Effect: Much like the timeless planar trait time stands still for you. Continue on with what's effected and what's not then what happens after it ends. Bam now you have yourself an interesting spell.
You can get overly technical if you need in the description.
Or flavor it as a variant on planar adaptable but say something like: you are immune to one of the current planes traits.
The trick with magic is to be creative and sneaky. Try not to attack it head on but bending/braking another rule to end up with the effect you want.
Aside from balance and making it unabusable, I see no logical reason why your mental scores are reset by these spells. Do they somehow scourge your brain of the experiences you have obtained thus far in your life?
As for it's purpose in your campaign, it seems to me that a caster obsessed with living longer would become a lich, not gamble with their life using a spell that could potentially end it with any casting.
I've never heard of humans not being viable because their lifespan is shorter than other races. Inter-racial relationships serve as the only time I've ever seen that come up -- where a PC worried they'd outlive their lover. Seeking an artifact that grants immortality should be a quest. Heck, an entire campaign can revolve around it. Many extraordinary historical people spent their entire lives searching for immortality. Even Sir Issac Newton, the man who invented calculus and our modern understanding of physics, sought the Philosopher's Stone. Immortality is not really something I would ever consider devaluing in my campaign.
Immortality (defined as unaging) is essentially meaningless in terms of character power level. There's no reason a wish shouldn't be able to do it.This isn't a video game, Zhayne. There's more to spells (and other character options) than power level. Consider if there existed a 1st level spell that teleports you 10-feet away. In terms of character power level, this spell would be pathetically weak -- no PC would prepare it. However, such a spell would dramatically change the game setting. Every prison and bank would have to be underground. Every prison cell would require manacles. It would be unfeasible to have a business with expensive inventory unless you had the magical expertise of 4th level spells. Yes, there's a big difference between talking about whether a spell should be 6th or 9th level, but my point remains the same. You have to think of spells more than in terms of power level, but also the implications it has on story and setting.
More than three nations in the Golerion campaign hinge on the fact that immortality is extremely difficult to obtain. Thuvia's entire economy thrives on the sun orchid elixir, regarded as the greatest alchemical achievement in the world. Razmir's cult is on the verge of collapse because he's still mortal, despite his immense god-like power.
That's why I said Wish. If you look at the standardized wish list, there's no way that becoming unaging qualifies as more powerful than anything on that list. Ergo, Wish does it.
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Fountain of Youth as described is not immortality, it's deferred death. It's like an really successful organ transplant - you'll renew your health and vitality for a while and it'll keep you going for years or even decades but there's only so many times you can swap out an organ before you keel over.
Immortality will still be a grand quest because the kind of people who search for Immortality are usually not satisfied with merely adding up to 100 years to their lifespan (by which point chance of the spell failing reaches 100%), especially since elves can reach 700 so 200 doesn't look all that impressive, and about half of casters will probably die before reaching the theoretical limit of the spell.
Golarion's immortality issues don't exist in every setting, but even if they do the spell isn't disastrous. Razmir is still mortal, though the timeline for collapse may be delayed somewhat - or perhaps he's already relying on the spell, courting its inevitable failure. The sun orchid elixir is still better than Fountain of Youth because it works repeatedly without failure (if you can afford it or are Artokus Kirran) and the drinker doesn't need to be able to personally cast powerful spells. In fact I could see it getting interesting if a powerful wizard capable of casting Fountain of Youth tried to buy or steal the Elixir for a lover or family member who couldn't personally extend their own life.
I wanted to a potential exploit of them getting the mental bonus for aging over and over. This way you are physically younger with the associated difficulty of that age in controlling their emotions.
Given that reincarnation doesn't change your mental stats, it seems odd that reverting your body to a younger age would do so. You can prevent the exploit by saying that physical penalties are reset to your new age, but you are still considered your actual age for purposes of mental bonuses - you gain new bonuses according to your actual age and neither lose nor repeatedly gain the bonuses for age categories you physically pass through twice. There's no bonus for being older than venerable, so the mental stats will eventually top off.
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Fountain of Youth as described is not immortality, it's deferred death. It's like an really successful organ transplant - you'll renew your health and vitality for a while and it'll keep you going for years or even decades but there's only so many times you can swap out an organ before you keel over.
Immortality will still be a grand quest because the kind of people who search for Immortality are usually not satisfied with merely adding up to 100 years to their lifespan (by which point chance of the spell failing reaches 100%), especially since elves can reach 700 so 200 doesn't look all that impressive, and about half of casters will probably die before reaching the theoretical limit of the spell.
Golarion's immortality issues don't exist in every setting, but even if they do the spell isn't disastrous. Razmir is still mortal, though the timeline for collapse may be delayed somewhat - or perhaps he's already relying on the spell, courting its inevitable failure. The sun orchid elixir is still better than Fountain of Youth because it works repeatedly without failure (if you can afford it or are Artokus Kirran) and the drinker doesn't need to be able to personally cast powerful spells. In fact I could see it getting interesting if a powerful wizard capable of casting Fountain of Youth tried to buy or steal the Elixir for a lover or family member who couldn't personally extend their own life.
I wanted to a potential exploit of them getting the mental bonus for aging over and over. This way you are physically younger with the associated difficulty of that age in controlling their emotions.Given that reincarnation doesn't change your mental stats, it seems odd that reverting your body to a younger age would do so. You can prevent the exploit by saying that physical penalties are reset to your new age, but you are still considered your actual age for purposes of mental bonuses - you gain new bonuses according to your actual age and neither lose nor repeatedly gain the bonuses...
That hadnt occurred to me.
You missunderstood, I'm saying create a spell that mimics that feature on you. I just used the plane traits as things that spells can already do.
Eh
Timeless
Wiz 6
Target:Personal/touch
Duration: 2hr/level
Effect: Much like the timeless planar trait time stands still for you. Continue on with what's effected and what's not then what happens after it ends. Bam now you have yourself an interesting spell.You can get overly technical if you need in the description.
This is a fun spell. It also creates another precedent for Wizards/Sorcerers to hide away in towers away from society.
Immortality has consequences on world building, especially in regards to inevitables (Maruts) enforcing the rule that things "die eventually", and Outsiders not getting souls they need to create more Outsiders (for those that are partially or completely reliant on mortals dying). This is excluding the socio economic effects. I came to Pathfinder from 3.5 and I know less about Golarion than I should. How widespread is the impact of the anti aging items in Golarion? Do thousands consume them? Tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?
Immortality has consequences on world building, especially in regards to inevitables (Maruts) enforcing the rule that things "die eventually", and Outsiders not getting souls they need to create more Outsiders (for those that are partially or completely reliant on mortals dying). This is excluding the socio economic effects. I came to Pathfinder from 3.5 and I know less about Golarion than I should. How widespread is the impact of the anti aging items in Golarion? Do thousands consume them? Tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?
In Golerion, the sun orchid elixir serves as pretty much the only remotely conceivable method of obtaining eternal youth. Only five vials are made every year, which go for auction where the losers must forfeit their bid. Every rich noble and king bids for it at values way over 50,000 gp. The entire economy of Thuvia, the nation selling the elixir, revolves around this auction, and they gone through great lengths to protect the formula and the alchemist that made it.
It's also worth mentioning that there exists Razmiran, a nation ruled by a very high level human wizard-king posing as a god. The main thing restraining his ambition from taking over half the continent rests with the fact that he's in his venerable years, desperately searching for a way to extend his lifespan or obtain true immortality.
Immortality has consequences on world building, especially in regards to inevitables (Maruts) enforcing the rule that things "die eventually", and Outsiders not getting souls they need to create more Outsiders (for those that are partially or completely reliant on mortals dying). This is excluding the socio economic effects. I came to Pathfinder from 3.5 and I know less about Golarion than I should. How widespread is the impact of the anti aging items in Golarion? Do thousands consume them? Tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?In Golerion, the sun orchid elixir serves as pretty much the only remotely conceivable method of obtaining eternal youth. Only five vials are made every year, which go for auction where the losers must forfeit their bid. Every rich noble and king bids for it at values way over 50,000 gp. The entire economy of Thuvia, the nation selling the elixir, revolves around this auction, and they gone through great lengths to protect the formula and the alchemist that made it.
It's also worth mentioning that there exists Razmiran, a nation ruled by a very high level human wizard-king posing as a god. The main thing restraining his ambition from taking over half the continent rests with the fact that he's in his venerable years, desperately searching for a way to extend his lifespan or obtain true immortality.
I'm not terribly familiar with Golarion, and maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but heck, you brought it up, so...
Why doesn't Razmir just become a lich? Isn't there already like two countries run by liches? It's not like it's an unknown concept...wizards of significantly less power than this false god have already become them.
Immortality has consequences on world building, especially in regards to inevitables (Maruts) enforcing the rule that things "die eventually", and Outsiders not getting souls they need to create more Outsiders (for those that are partially or completely reliant on mortals dying). This is excluding the socio economic effects. I came to Pathfinder from 3.5 and I know less about Golarion than I should. How widespread is the impact of the anti aging items in Golarion? Do thousands consume them? Tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands?In Golerion, the sun orchid elixir serves as pretty much the only remotely conceivable method of obtaining eternal youth. Only five vials are made every year, which go for auction where the losers must forfeit their bid. Every rich noble and king bids for it at values way over 50,000 gp. The entire economy of Thuvia, the nation selling the elixir, revolves around this auction, and they gone through great lengths to protect the formula and the alchemist that made it.
It's also worth mentioning that there exists Razmiran, a nation ruled by a very high level human wizard-king posing as a god. The main thing restraining his ambition from taking over half the continent rests with the fact that he's in his venerable years, desperately searching for a way to extend his lifespan or obtain true immortality.
I'm not terribly familiar with Golarion, and maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but heck, you brought it up, so...
Why doesn't Razmir just become a lich? Isn't there already like two countries run by liches? It's not like it's an unknown concept...wizards of significantly less power than this false god have already become them.
He hasn't read all the books so he doesn't know his options. Especially the wizard discovery for immortality.
I'm not terribly familiar with Golarion, and maybe this is the wrong place to ask this, but heck, you brought it up, so...
Why doesn't Razmir just become a lich? Isn't there already like two countries run by liches? It's not like it's an unknown concept...wizards of significantly less power than this false god have already become them.
A good question. Lichdom requires a lifetime of work for a necromancer, and the process is risky. Razmir isn't a necromancer, and I suspect he doesn't have the time to complete the process, though I'm certain he's researching it. Many of the major lich characters in Golerion lore did not obtain their lichdom lightly. It took Tar-Baphon nearly 2000 years after his death to rise as the Whispering Tyrant.
One must also remember that not everybody uses Golarion as a setting.
I wouldn't think there would even be a market for such things; I can't imagine any sane being wanting to live forever. Life sucks, and eternal life sucks eternally.
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Some people can't imagine a sane being not wanting to live forever. I can see both sides to the argument, depending on circumstances of immortality.
Cyrad, did you read in my post why Fountain of Youth doesn't invalidate those elements in Golarion?
Besides, the OP suggested these spells for world-building reasons - to introduce a slightly more accessible but fundamentally flawed way to extend your life in a limited fashion (NOT achieve immortality).
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Some people can't imagine a sane being not wanting to live forever. I can see both sides to the argument, depending on circumstances of immortality.
Cyrad, did you read in my post why Fountain of Youth doesn't invalidate those elements in Golarion?
Besides, the OP suggested these spells for world-building reasons - to introduce a slightly more accessible but fundamentally flawed way to extend your life in a limited fashion (NOT achieve immortality).
Yep first few times your pretty safe if you aren't making yourself decades younger multiple times but in time its going to reach a point where it just wont work anymore. So it wont invalidate the economy of places offering true immortality, wouldn't do much good for the longer lived races and if your abuse it eventually your going to find it doesn't work for you. At most I can't see someone getting more than a century or two extra out of it if they're lucky which is probably going to be less than dwarf's and the like get anyway.
Cyrad, did you read in my post why Fountain of Youth doesn't invalidate those elements in Golarion?
Yes, you raise good points. I now agree with you. An imperfect, limited, and risky life extension spell seems alright. I still believe the spell needs a rewrite and should have a higher level, at least 7th level (the spell level where magic can regrow limbs). At the very least, the spell should have expensive material components and its diminishing returns should be more simple and clear.
I do like the earlier suggestion of a spell that gives you temporary immunity to the retroactive nature of the timeless planar trait. It conjures the image of elder wizards creating a pocket dimension in the Astral Plane, becoming more and more reclusive and possibly going mad from it.
I wouldn't think there would even be a market for such things; I can't imagine any sane being wanting to live forever. Life sucks, and eternal life sucks eternally.
No offense, Zhayne, but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on these forums. And I've read 200 post arguments about the definition of "wielding," and I once gave someone a sincere suggestion to make a monster scarier by giving it the face of Nicolas Cage.
One must also remember that not everybody uses Golarion as a setting.
I wouldn't think there would even be a market such things; I can't imagine any sane being wanting to live forever. Life sucks, and eternal life sucks eternally.
Trollololo.
I would like to be able to live long enough in healthful youth to decide that my death is the last adventure. Sincerely sorry your life sucks, mate.
The respective aging/hunger/thirst catch-up with Pathfinder timeless planes is different from 3.5, which did not feature this. I had overlooked this difference until this forum thread. So I now ask, would it even be possible for things to invade (such as Githyanki) from the astral plane in pathfinder? Githyanki must also lay their eggs in the prime material plane since they don't have normal metabolic functions there in the astral. Would "Natives" of the Astral Plane be immune to this catch - up effect?
The respective aging/hunger/thirst catch-up with Pathfinder timeless planes is different from 3.5, which did not feature this. I had overlooked this difference until this forum thread. So I now ask, would it even be possible for things to invade (such as Githyanki) from the astral plane in pathfinder? Githyanki must also lay their eggs in the prime material plane since they don't have normal metabolic functions there in the astral. Would "Natives" of the Astral Plane be immune to this catch - up effect?
Hm maybe not, they might need a planar adaptation effect or spell. Or they may not have those functions. Who knows so just make it up for your worlds.
The respective aging/hunger/thirst catch-up with Pathfinder timeless planes is different from 3.5, which did not feature this. I had overlooked this difference until this forum thread. So I now ask, would it even be possible for things to invade (such as Githyanki) from the astral plane in pathfinder? Githyanki must also lay their eggs in the prime material plane since they don't have normal metabolic functions there in the astral. Would "Natives" of the Astral Plane be immune to this catch - up effect?Hm maybe not, they might need a planar adaptation effect or spell. Or they may not have those functions. Who knows so just make it up for your worlds.
Indeed. I'll just have to say Githyanki are immune to astral catchup (heh astral ketchup is deadly).
Indeed. I'll just have to say Githyanki are immune to astral catchup (heh astral ketchup is deadly).The respective aging/hunger/thirst catch-up with Pathfinder timeless planes is different from 3.5, which did not feature this. I had overlooked this difference until this forum thread. So I now ask, would it even be possible for things to invade (such as Githyanki) from the astral plane in pathfinder? Githyanki must also lay their eggs in the prime material plane since they don't have normal metabolic functions there in the astral. Would "Natives" of the Astral Plane be immune to this catch - up effect?Hm maybe not, they might need a planar adaptation effect or spell. Or they may not have those functions. Who knows so just make it up for your worlds.
But does it taste good? Oh maybe it's like blowfish deadly but super tasty.
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The respective aging/hunger/thirst catch-up with Pathfinder timeless planes is different from 3.5, which did not feature this. I had overlooked this difference until this forum thread. So I now ask, would it even be possible for things to invade (such as Githyanki) from the astral plane in pathfinder? Githyanki must also lay their eggs in the prime material plane since they don't have normal metabolic functions there in the astral. Would "Natives" of the Astral Plane be immune to this catch - up effect?
Outsiders are not mortals. Many of them used to be mortals or some other lesser type of existence before becoming what they are. They don't even need to breathe or eat, so timeless planes mean nothing to them. Outsiders native to the Material Plane serve as the exception and function the same way as any other mortal. Material plane outsiders have a lifespan and likely become true outsiders after death.
But the Astral Plane would make an interesting place for a villain to reside to cheat death. He would have to recruit followers to do his bidding, though.
I had Fridge Horror about the timeless nature of the Astral Plane. I have a cute kitsune witch with a kitten familiar named Elle. The witch loves Elle and considers her a best friend. Elle likes the witch's bag of holding (provided the bag is open so air can come inside), but then I thought what would happen if someone punctured the bag with Elle inside of it. Elle would be sucked into the Astral Plane and made to float aimlessly in a void. The witch would have no way to reliably locate Elle -- it would be like searching for something lost in a sea bigger than the entire universe. The witch would be in a position where she must either abandon her search for Elle or lose all of her spellcasting for the rest of her life, constantly feeling the fear and loneliness her familiar has. Eventually, she'd have to make that difficult choice to get another familiar. In doing so, Elle would feel her intelligence fading away. At that point, she would realize that all hope of rescue is lost. And so, Elle would become nothing more than a confused kitten mewing desperately into the voice for all eternity, abandoned by her best friend, never dying, cold and lonely forever.
After that thought, the witch never allows Elle to sleep in her bag of holding...
The respective aging/hunger/thirst catch-up with Pathfinder timeless planes is different from 3.5, which did not feature this. I had overlooked this difference until this forum thread. So I now ask, would it even be possible for things to invade (such as Githyanki) from the astral plane in pathfinder? Githyanki must also lay their eggs in the prime material plane since they don't have normal metabolic functions there in the astral. Would "Natives" of the Astral Plane be immune to this catch - up effect?Outsiders are not mortals. Many of them used to be mortals or some other lesser type of existence before becoming what they are. They don't even need to breathe or eat, so timeless planes mean nothing to them. Outsiders native to the Material Plane serve as the exception and function the same way as any other mortal. Material plane outsiders have a lifespan and likely become true outsiders after death.
But the Astral Plane would make an interesting place for a villain to reside to cheat death. He would have to recruit followers to do his bidding, though.
I had Fridge Horror about the timeless nature of the Astral Plane. I have a cute kitsune witch with a kitten familiar named Elle. The witch loves Elle and considers her a best friend. Elle likes the witch's bag of holding (provided the bag is open so air can come inside), but then I thought what would happen if someone punctured the bag with Elle inside of it. Elle would be sucked into the Astral Plane and made to float aimlessly in a void. The witch would have no way to reliably locate Elle -- it would be like searching for something lost in a sea bigger than the entire universe. The witch would be in a position where she must either abandon her search for Elle or lose all of her spellcasting for the rest of her life, constantly feeling the fear and loneliness her familiar has. Eventually, she'd have to make that difficult choice to get another familiar. In doing so, Elle would feel her intelligence fading away. At...
Yeah that's dark and smart.
Though shouldn't plane shift work in reaching that space?
Yeah that's dark and smart.
Though shouldn't plane shift work in reaching that space?
Plane shift doesn't transport you precisely. I think a combination of plane shift, scrying, and teleport would work, though. However, I had this thought around when the witch was 4th level, when such magic was out of reach.
Plane shift doesn't transport you precisely. I think a combination of plane shift, scrying, and teleport would work, though. However, I had this thought around when the witch was 4th level, when such magic was out of reach.Yeah that's dark and smart.
Though shouldn't plane shift work in reaching that space?
Still a smart choice since it's so much easier than having to mount a rescue. Though I do like carry companion and tattoo familiar.
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I still believe the spell needs a rewrite and should have a higher level, at least 7th level (the spell level where magic can regrow limbs). At the very least, the spell should have expensive material components and its diminishing returns should be more simple and clear.
You can bring back the dead with a 5th level spell so I don't think 7th level is necessary (and in fact think it's really weird that Regenerate is 7th level). Agreed on the latter two points. Maybe the pure spring water must be mixed with powdered emerald (associated with youth and rebirth) and a pinch of ash from a phoenix, total cost 2500gp. Failure chance could be a simple cumulative rate of 20-40% per casting.
I do like the earlier suggestion of a spell that gives you temporary immunity to the retroactive nature of the timeless planar trait. It conjures the image of elder wizards creating a pocket dimension in the Astral Plane, becoming more and more reclusive and possibly going mad from it.
The original suggestion was to mimic the timeless trait without extradimensional travel. Both are good idea, but you'd have to decide how dispellable it should be. Making it possible to dispel the wizard's unnatural youth is interesting, and it encourages paranoia in the wizard which is also interesting, but a single Dispel Magic aging the wizard into death is probably a bit much. If you wanted an ongoing effect, you'd probably want to specify either that it can't be dispelled unless the dispelling caster is of higher level than the affected caster and/or have Dispel Magic temporarily revert the caster to their natural age rather than totally end the effect (with a caster who should be dead rendered instead both staggered and exhausted).
The original suggestion was to mimic the timeless trait without extradimensional travel. Both are good idea, but you'd have to decide how dispellable it should be. Making it possible to dispel the wizard's unnatural youth is interesting, and it encourages paranoia in the wizard which is also interesting, but a single Dispel Magic aging the wizard into death is probably a bit much. If you wanted an ongoing effect, you'd probably want to specify either that it can't be dispelled unless the dispelling caster is of higher level than the affected caster and/or have Dispel Magic temporarily revert the caster to their natural age rather than totally end the effect (with a caster who should be dead rendered instead both staggered and exhausted).
Another possibility is that the spell ends slowly even if dispelled, similar to how the fly spell makes the subject descend slowly to the ground for a few rounds. The caster may have 24 hours until they suffer the full effects of their real age.
The idea that loss of memories causes a loss of levels is the first idea I want to throw out the window. It stops you from the hangover adventure where the characters wake up with skills, levels, and animal companions they don't remember gaining. XPs and levels are about energy. The mental inventory with incantations, rituals, and places studied closely can be lost with memories. You could have an NPC who is very old and wise but can't remember anyone's right name.
Most important, in the game you can destroy trolls, unlike reality. In Equestria, life is so good everypony wants to be an alicorn and live forever.
I'd use a focus object to store your soul which results in slower aging and possibly needing less food/drink and rest. But the object should be a huge investment (like trap the soul ?) and if it ever gets destroyed with the spell active should have disastrous impact and has a cumulative chance of failure as the years pass.
Additionally I'd add that it is harder (or impossible) to raise the character since the god of death or another entity lays claim to the character's soul. It is a bit like lichdom for those not quite willing to go that far.. yet.
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Ok done some thinking and I will stick with the spell level since while I admit I'm not the best at balancing things I do have reasons for picking 6th and you aren't making the body do something as extreme as regrowing a limb your just revitlizing the cells. As Weirdo said you can raise the dead at lower levels and change their form temporarily.
Scary image with the kitten there Cyrad definately the type of thing that would motivate a search for tracking spells.
Diminishing returns is a bit hard to work with but maybe it'd be better if I removed the component about years removed and just raised it to a 10% chance per casting. I'm not entirely comfortable with that as the reason I included years was it was a balancing act the more you wound your clock back the more chance you had of it failing but at the same time doing shorter periods more often also increased the chance with the cumulative chance. Of course just having a straight cumulative chance does make it useable by longer lived races as it doesn't matter if your winding back 1 year or 100 years. Good and bad have to think about this.
@Goth Goru
The spell never affected memories, levels or the like just ability scores in which case it just wound them back through any relevant age categories adding penalties and bonuses as appropriate. So while technically a 90 year old wizard turned into an 8 year old might find it hard to focus, grasp concepts their brain isn't really suited for they'd still be a 20th level wizard smarter than most adults and fully capable of working to reverse it. Which was only to avoid anyone trying to abuse it by adding cumulative int/wis/cha bonuses by reliving through the aging categories. Although having so many people misunderstnad what I was getting at has the raised the amusing image of an old wizard turned teenager looking down at their body and realizing they were going to need to deal with their boy/girl crazy years all over again.
@Remco
that sounds more like something that would be the 20th level capstone of true immortality, interesting idea though.
As for the soul being claimed instantly I always use the old rule of a soul must be free and willing to return as meaning if a god doesn't want them raised they can't be and its very, very rare a good is willing to let someone return.
Anyway here's a revised version with the changes in bold for people to look at . . .
Spell: Golden Apples
Level: 6
Spell Resistance: Yes
Save: Fortitude
Components: V, S, M (See text)
School: Transmutation
Duration: Instantaneous
This spell transforms the subject to a younger age text removed to a minimum of 1 year old. This effectively resets their biological clock adjusting physical and mental attributes as well as having them count as their new age for maximum life exptancy I.e. A 40 year old with a life exptancy of 97 turned into a 15 year old won't die till their 97 (Phsyical penalties are undo for each age category passed through however mental attributes remain unaffected and provide no bonuses for aging through that age category a second time).
However multiple castings of this spell on an individual are risky. There is a cumulative 10% chance per casting that all years removed this way will be applied at once potentially killing them, that is the first time the spell is cast on someone there's a 10% chance any years deferred will be applied, the second time its 20% and so on that rather being restored to 15 years old they would instead be aged to 65 years old or older/younger as appropriate.
This spell requires a blessed/holy goblet containing an elxier made of pure mountain spring water, a mixture of crushed cinnabar, jade, emeralds and gold (to a value of ? gp per ? undone), 200ml's of aloe gel, 1 sliced rubarb stalk, 1 pinch of saffron and a sliced Lingzhi mushroom stirred with a freely given feather from a phoenix as the spell is cast on it, when all colour is drained from the feather leaving it gray and brittle the elixer is ready. It must then poured be over an apple. Anyone eating that fruit is then youthened to the appropriate age.
I may want a number of other suitable ingredients to add to the elixir.
For the price I'm debating on how rare you'd want this. I'm leaning towards either 25 GP per month (100 years is 30,000 GP) or 50 GP per year (100 years is 5,000 GP) but I'm not 100% sure yet.
I'm picturing it as . . .
1) Get holy goblet, get goblet blessed.
2) Fill with mixture of water, aloe gel, rubarb, saffron and the sliced Lingzhi mushroom.
3) Stir the mixture with the phoneix feather while casting the spell on it and pouring the crushed gems and metals in (the various ingredients will disolve as the liquid begins bubbling and thickening till its similar to honey in appearance and texture)
4) Pour the liquid over the fruit and it will be absorbed in a hissing steamy appearance turning the fruit golden in colour.
Other cultures use different fruits such as peaches.
It would so work as an alchemical discovery. The original potion of longevity required elf's blood, but it never came up if Drow blood would work.
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It would so work as an alchemical discovery. The original potion of longevity required elf's blood, but it never came up if Drow blood would work.
Which is the lvl 20 true immortality capstone, safe, permanent and 100% replicable. This is a first step in that direction flawed, risky and eventually it stops working.
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I wouldn't price the material component by the month. If you want it more expensive, just increase it to 100-200 gp per year.
If you don't want to make it too much like alchemy I'd also cut some ingredients from the elixir, or at least drop quantities. The most complicated material components I can think of are things like "wine stirred with an owl's feather" (Identify), and spells like Reincarnate or True Seeing specify simply requiring expensive oils and ointment rather than listing the ingredients thereof.
EDIT: In addition to the Immortality discovery, alchemists should be able to access this spell via extracts at an appropriate level, like wizards.
Also note that if the phoenix feather has to be freely given it will be more difficult for evil characters to use this spell.
PF seems to hold a mind/body separation in that for example reincarnation affects physical but not mental traits. If swapping from an orc's brain to an elf's brain or vice-versa doesn't affect your mental stats, then changing to an older or younger body shouldn't. It would be interesting for a caster to have to deal with some mental changes from the spell but I would recommend instead stating that "while the spell does not affect mental ability scores, targets find that youthful bodies are accompanied by youthful impulsiveness and high passions."
The idea that loss of memories causes a loss of levels is the first idea I want to throw out the window. It stops you from the hangover adventure where the characters wake up with skills, levels, and animal companions they don't remember gaining. XPs and levels are about energy. The mental inventory with incantations, rituals, and places studied closely can be lost with memories. You could have an NPC who is very old and wise but can't remember anyone's right name.
There are many different kinds of memory and they're not all stored or accessed in the same way. Most people think of memory as episodic (events) or semantic (facts), but procedural memory (skills) is hugely important and covers most parts of levelling. BAB, most skills, and many feats and class features from weapon focus to bardic music would rely primarily on procedural memory - and many that don't would use semantic memory, like knowledge skills or spellbook-based casting.
Some parts of leveling probably do represent a gain in energy, like sorcerous or oracular abilities or "pools" (ki, arcane, or grit). You can certainly lose memories without losing levels, especially if the lost memories are episodic; the amnesiac fighter doesn't remember where he learned to fight or past fights he's been in, but he remembers how to fight. And some characters might retain a keen memory for their profession while age erodes other forms of memory.
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I wouldn't price the material component by the month. If you want it more expensive, just increase it to 100-200 gp per year.
If you don't want to make it too much like alchemy I'd also cut some ingredients from the elixir, or at least drop quantities. The most complicated material components I can think of are things like "wine stirred with an owl's feather" (Identify), and spells like Reincarnate or True Seeing specify simply requiring expensive oils and ointment rather than listing the ingredients thereof.
EDIT: In addition to the Immortality discovery, alchemists should be able to access this spell via extracts at an appropriate level, like wizards.
Also note that if the phoenix feather has to be freely given it will be more difficult for evil characters to use this spell.
PF seems to hold a mind/body separation in that for example reincarnation affects physical but not mental traits. If swapping from an orc's brain to an elf's brain or vice-versa doesn't affect your mental stats, then changing to an older or younger body shouldn't. It would be interesting for a caster to have to deal with some mental changes from the spell but I would recommend instead stating that "while the spell does not affect mental ability scores, targets find that youthful bodies are accompanied by youthful impulsiveness and high passions."
The idea that loss of memories causes a loss of levels is the first idea I want to throw out the window. It stops you from the hangover adventure where the characters wake up with skills, levels, and animal companions they don't remember gaining. XPs and levels are about energy. The mental inventory with incantations, rituals, and places studied closely can be lost with memories. You could have an NPC who is very old and wise but can't remember anyone's right name.There are many different kinds of memory and they're not all stored or accessed in the same way. Most people think of memory as episodic (events) or semantic (facts), but procedural memory...
OK I can drop the organic components and just keep the crushed mix of emeralds, jade and gold. Yep this is harder for evil beings which is why they tend to go the lich/demi-lich route instead.