Crafting Potions and Wands - Spell Source

[Clectabled]

I have searched for several days now trying to find an answer and keep chasing threads in circles.

When crafting Wands, Potions the spell in question MUST be used to craft the item, I get that, but does it have to come from the item creator?

If a Potion Brewer is doing his thing, can he brew a potion if the party wizard or cleric is providing the spell, or if the spell is provided by a scroll or wand?

Same question for Crafting a wand, if the spell is provided through a secondary source ( Scroll or alternate caster) , can the wand still be crafted?

I have found a hand full of threads that seem to lean in either direction regarding the answer.

And chance we can get a developer to chime in here and provide an answer?

Clectable

[Jeraa]

Quote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Access can be through another spellcaster.

The only thing the last line means is that you can not add +5 to the DC to bypass the spell requirement like you can with all other items - someone must have access to the spell in some way to craft a potion, spell-trigger, or spell-completion item.

But do note that any spells used during the creation of the item must be case every single day you are working on the item. So getting the spell through a scroll or wand can get expensive fast.

Quote:

The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

The above quote is specifically about armor, but the sections on creating the other magic item types include a similar line as well.

[Clectabled]

I have seen that line quoted in several of the threads I have searched and the threads with the alternate argument quote this..

FAQ wrote:

Can a character with Brew Potion create a potion of any spell he knows simply by adding +5 to the DC, even without preparing it?

No. When creating potions, the crafter must prepare and expend the spell used by the potion as part of its creation. This is an exception to the normal rules that allow a caster to skip one of the prerequisites for crafting an item by adding +5 to the DC.

This quote seems to specifically point out that potions ( and there is another rule indication spell completion / trigger items fall into the same category.

The "prepare and expend" seems to countermand the bolded text in your rules quote Jeraa.

While I personally think that rule just states the spell must be used ( IE you cannot craft the item without the relevant spell ).

It can, and has been argued that it means the crafter MUST provide the spell by casting it him (her) self. That specifically is what I am trying to clarify here.

[Sniggevert]

Jeraa wrote:

Quote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Access can be through another spellcaster.

The only thing the last line means is that you can not add +5 to the DC to bypass the spell requirement like you can with all other items - someone must have access to the spell in some way to craft a potion, spell-trigger, or spell-completion item.

But do note that any spells used during the creation of the item must be case every single day you are working on the item. So getting the spell through a scroll or wand can get expensive fast.

Quote:

The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

The above quote is specifically about armor, but the sections on creating the other magic item types include a similar line as well.

This last line does not mean what you think it means.

As Clectabled quotes from the FAQ, it means the creator MUST have the spell prerequisite available to cast. Normally, you can use another magic item or spellcaster to fulfill that by upping the DC by 5...but not in the case of potion, trigger or completion items. In those cases you must have the spell ready to cast yourself (or SLA from yourself).

[Clectabled]

Well one for, one against..

Just so we don't spiral into an off topic discussion the focus of the question is whether the creator HAS to be the one to cast the spell.

I can see both sides and there is valid arguments to both sides which is why I would like to see someone from Dev to chime in and clarify.

I fully support the rule that the relevant spell must be used. ( well mostly support anyway)

Does it really matter where the spell comes from as per Jeraa's quote?

OR

Is Sniggervert have it right and the spell must come from the crafter.

note.... this is a cleverly disguised thread bump...

[Sniggevert]

Clectabled wrote:

Well one for, one against..

Just so we don't spiral into an off topic discussion the focus of the question is whether the creator HAS to be the one to cast the spell.

I can see both sides and there is valid arguments to both sides which is why I would like to see someone from Dev to chime in and clarify.
...

You got a Dev to chime in when they posted a FAQ on the subject. I doubt you'll them to reiterate it though.

[Clectabled]

Yea but taking the Devs answer, word for word prevents Sorcerers and Bards from crafting potions because they do not 'prepare' spells. Since we know Sorcerers and bards can indeed craft potions we have to look at the intent of his comment.

Was the intent

a. The spell can be provided by any source, but must be provided.

or

b. The spell must be provided by the crafter.

Based on the question, the interpretation seems to be the spell must be provided. The question was can the spell be omitted as part of the crafting requirement by taking a -5 on the spell craft check.

The response clearly states the spell must be provided, but does little to clarify the source requirements (if there is a source requirement)

Clectabled

[Diego Rossi]

Sniggevert wrote:

Jeraa wrote:

Quote:

Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.

Access can be through another spellcaster.

The only thing the last line means is that you can not add +5 to the DC to bypass the spell requirement like you can with all other items - someone must have access to the spell in some way to craft a potion, spell-trigger, or spell-completion item.

But do note that any spells used during the creation of the item must be case every single day you are working on the item. So getting the spell through a scroll or wand can get expensive fast.

Quote:

The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

The above quote is specifically about armor, but the sections on creating the other magic item types include a similar line as well.

This last line does not mean what you think it means.

As Clectabled quotes from the FAQ, it means the creator MUST have the spell prerequisite available to cast. Normally, you can use another magic item or spellcaster to fulfill that by upping the DC by 5...but not in the case of potion, trigger or completion items. In those cases you must have the spell ready to cast yourself (or SLA from yourself).

Completely wrong.

FAQ wrote:

Crafting and Bypassing Requirements: What crafting requirements can you bypass by adding +5 to the DC of your Spellcraft check?

As presented on page 549 of the Core Rulebook, there are no limitations other than (1) you have to have the item creation feat, and (2) you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites. So racial requirements, specific spell requirements, math requirements (such as "caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus"), and so on, are all subject to the +5 DC rule.

With the stated exceptions you don't need to both add +5 to the DC and a caster caster or a magic item with the right spell. You either take the +5 or get a spellcaster/magic item with the right spell.

It is a "or" option not an "and" option.

[Diego Rossi]

PRD - Ultimate Campaign wrote:

Cooperative Crafting

If you need another character to supply one of an item's requirements (such as if you're a wizard creating an item with a divine spell), both you and the other character must be present for the entire duration of the crafting process. If the GM is using the downtime system, both you and the other character must use downtime at the same time for this purpose. Only you make the skill check to complete the item—or, if there is a chance of creating a cursed item, the GM makes the check in secret.

If the second character is providing a spell effect, that character's spell is expended for the day, just as if you were using one of your own spells for a requirement. If the second character is a hired NPC, you must pay for the NPC's spellcasting service for each day of the item creation.

Sniggevert wrote:

You got a Dev to chime in when they posted a FAQ on the subject. I doubt you'll them to reiterate it though.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Oliver McShade and the Core Ruleook wrote:

"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."

A wizard and a cleric cooperating to craft a scroll of cure light wounds are, between the two of them, meeting all of the prerequisites for the item's creation. Thus, the "you cannot create this if you don't meet all the prerequisites" rule on page 549 does not apply, because "you" in the case of cooperative crafting is "the people involved in crafting the item."

SKR when he was a Paizo employee and a Developer is enough?

[Clectabled]

I love your take on the matter Diego Rossi and as a GM I would agree with you 100%.

However that is the crux of the question

Does providing the spell from a separate source fulfill the spell prerequisite?

The FAQ quote I provided above can be argued that it does not because the Dev stated the crafter must Prepare and Expend the spell when crafting potions. (and by extension Scrolls and Wands)

[blahpers]

Have some care how literally you take the FAQ. As it stands, spontaneous casters cannot create potions at all. This, of course, would contradict the FAQ allowing spell-like abilities to provide the required spells.

[Diego Rossi]

PRD wrote:

Creating Potions
...
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
...
Creating Scrolls
...
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
...
Creating Wands
...
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires.

Oracle or Inquisitors can't make potions, Bards and Sorcerers can.

;P

[Clectabled]

Diego Rossi wrote:

SKR when he was a Paizo employee and a Developer is enough?

For me... hell yea!!!

However the quote I provided was a FAQ, and as has been mentioned in many many posts, SKR opinion is simply another player opinion and not an official ruling.

Sniggevert - does that reverse your thoughts on the process

Cause if not, this is still muddy water right?

[Clectabled]

blahpers wrote:

Have some care how literally you take the FAQ. As it stands, spontaneous casters cannot create potions at all. This, of course, would contradict the FAQ allowing spell-like abilities to provide the required spells.

LOL...

I am just trying to bring clarity within this wall of fog known as the Item creation rules.

[blahpers]

Diego Rossi wrote:

PRD wrote:

Creating Potions
...
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
...
Creating Scrolls
...
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
...
Creating Wands
...
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires.

Oracle or Inquisitors can't make potions, Bards and Sorcerers can.

;P

Heh.