[Thistletop Spoilers] Gogmurt, Tangletooth and the TPK - Did I miss something.

[dragonhunterq]

The party (all 3rd level) - Druid (w/o AC), Monk, Rogue, Ranger/Wizard/EK.

Location: the brambles just outside Thistletop.

This was a brutal fight, that easily killed everyone. I was rolling hot, confirming 4 crits, and the players pretty much couldn't hit Gogmurt thanks to both -4 to hit from squeezing and I gave him +4 Cover bonus to AC as he was attacking from just within the bramble walls (thanks to woodland stride). Effective AC 26.

He instructed Tangletooth to always move into flanking position (The first trick a rogue with an AC is going to teach) so was usually hitting with produce flame at +5 touch attack 2d6+4 damage. With the squeezing, giving a -4 to everyone's AC (Except the Druids), he pretty much hits everyone on a 3.

Tangletooth is (when flanking) +8 to hit, with 3 attacks. Add in the aforementioned -4 to AC, He's hitting on 5's (ish), and most rounds he's should hit twice for a total of 2d6+6 damage (I actually didn't miss a single attack for either Gogmurt or TT)

The party went down like dominoes. Opening gambit was a sneak attack on the druid. Everyone moved forward and tried to hit G in the brambles.

Ok, so breaking the unwritten rules we did a reset back to where the druid got sneak attacked.

This time the party fell back to the howling hole, so they wouldn't suffer the squeezing penalties. G wanders through the brambles to behind the party while TT moves up and sets up the flank. 3 attacks from the party and TT has taken 9 damage (more or less the only damage dealt either time). Full attack from TT and G all hit and one confirmed critical and the monk is KO'd. In a display of tactical suicide that defies belief the Rogue moves INTO the difficult terrain and suffers the squeezing penalties - not even getting into a position to flank while doing so. I asked him if he was sure, and he replied that it was more in character for him to target the TT than the Gogmurt (because he's a bit of a coward and Gogmurt was more dangerous or something!).

The druid and the EK both miss. G and TT 5' step (G first and readying to strike when TT moves into place) 3 out of the 4 attacks hit and the EK is unconscious.

For those counting that's 2 rounds, 2 players out of the fight.

At this point two players pretty much gave up, and said they were generating new characters. So I allowed one of them to make a suitably heroic last stand to give the 2 players who wanted to withdraw a chance to do so.

Questions: Was this just bad luck and bad tactics from the players?
Was I wrong to allow Gogmurt to attack from within the bramble walls and gain the cover bonus to AC?
Were G and TT's tactics reasonable?
Should I have done more to talk the rogue out of his action, and reminded him of the squeezing penalties?

[NobodysHome]

In the entire AP, my party only twice ever came close to a TPK. Once was in the stupid brambles with the -4 to hit/-4 to AC, and the other was in Book 5.

They were about to die to the goblin dogs so I modified the penalty to -2/-2, which was just enough to let them win.

I think your tactics are sound, though I worry about that +4 to AC from being in the hedge. An incorporeal creature striking out from within a wall gets that +4. Does a hedge really count just as much as a wall? GM call. Personally, I'd have given it a +2 because it's just a hedge. Maybe +4 for light weapons.

Your party's issue is that it doesn't have a single frontline fighter and the thistles are designed as a "fighter feel-good paradise". Nobody in your group has a lot of hit points, no one has full BAB, and no one's buffing the group. (There's another lack -- no cleric or bard to provide buffs.)

So it's a really vicious up-close-and-personal fight with a group that was never designed for such a fight.

It's a lesson well-learned at this point, though, as there are later up-close fights that are even more brutal if no one can stand up front and be the bottleneck...

=====

EDIT: As an example, my Gogmurt was facing a 3rd-level paladin who didn't like him so she Smote Evil on him.
+3 BAB + 3 STR + 4 Smite + 1 bard = +11 to hit, 1d6+7 damage per hit.

He also had a raging barbarian.
+3 BAB + 4 STR + 2 rage + 1 bard - 1 Power Attack = +9 to hit, 2d6+13 damage per hit.

Suddenly, that 26 AC isn't feeling all that comfy, especially against the barbarian (who also had 44 hit points pre-rage, so he wasn't going anywhere).

Can anyone in your party come close to +10 to hit yet?

[Story Archer]

dragonhunterq wrote:

Questions:

1) Was this just bad luck and bad tactics from the players?
2) Was I wrong to allow Gogmurt to attack from within the bramble walls and gain the cover bonus to AC?
3) Were G and TT's tactics reasonable?
4) Should I have done more to talk the rogue out of his action, and reminded him of the squeezing penalties?

1) Sounds like a combination of both along with the party paying the price for not being especially well balanced. I don't have a problem with a party not being built to fit the traditional 'roles', but they have to be able to play smart to make up for that lack. Dice rolls certainly played a role as they so often do in low-level encounters.

2) I wouldn't have done it, especially not with a small creature who theoretically has no reach to speak of. Casting spells yes, but attacking effectively through a wall, no. He's already got enough tactical advantage.

3) Perfectly reasonable. He could have gone and rallied the visiting goblins from elsewhere in the briar patch and made life infinitely worse on the party. I would expect a Druid to use his natural surroundings to his advantage and to fight effectively with his Animal Companion.

4) Its not your job to talk players out of doing stupid things. Its how they learn. Also, I'm fine with a character role-playing a coward, so long as he understands that doing so can hurt his party, and the smaller the party, the more that pain will be felt.

In our run, after a couple of hit and run attacks from these two, our Fey Sorcerer used her own Woodland Stride ability to follow and Charmed the little goblin. He proved a valuable ally until the spell wore off and he rallied his fellow goblins against us - but by then it was too late.

[Snorter]

dragonhunterq wrote:

Questions: Was this just bad luck and bad tactics from the players?

Was I wrong to allow Gogmurt to attack from within the bramble walls and gain the cover bonus to AC?
Were G and TT's tactics reasonable?
Should I have done more to talk the rogue out of his action, and reminded him of the squeezing penalties?

1) 4 confirmed crits is bad luck.

Lopsided party composition is on the party.

2) I think there's a difference between being able to move through the plants, and being able to fight from within them, with no hindrance.
He's definitely got a home turf advantage, which should be exploited to the full, but I'd use it to get around the PCs, outpace them, fetch reinforcements, etc, rather than have him stand toe-to-toe with the PCs.
"Can't hit me! There's a bush in the way!
Now there isn't!
Now it's back!
Now it isn't!"

3) Tactics are reasonable, if you're happy for him to be able to fight with the benefits of cover, and none of the hindrances. Longlegs get stuck in brambles, make selves easy target? Go for it.
If you run it so that he can move where he likes, but has to break cover to fight unimpeded, then he should be less brave.

A good rule of thumb is to play solo creatures as being a bit more cautious than when they're in a group, bolstered by mob bravado.
Take a look at the situation through their eyes, try not to use information about the PCs that you only know because you're the GM.
If four people are attacking a goblin fort, they're either naive, or very confident, and you can't tell a PC's class or level, except by what they do. Do you want to pick a fight with them, then find out they're a quartet of high-powered badasses?
If they're blundering around, arguing with each other, begging for healing, complaining that they're low on spells, or being otherwise incompetent...maybe you can take them out?

One thing you don't say, is whether the PC druid was using his own woodland stride before the encounter.
If I saw that the PCs included a druid of their own, I'd be less eager to take them on alone, as I couldn't guarantee I had the mobility advantage.
And I'd be less inclined to stand inside a bramble hedge, that an enemy druid could use against me.

4) How many reminders does a player need?
You're already giving them a do-over, rerunning an encounter they've already played, in which the terrain hindered them.
If this was the first time they'd come to the hedge, I'd say "You can fit in there, but I will be using the squeezing rules. Do you still want to do it?"
If there'd been a break of a few weeks since they last went in, I might remind them.
But when it's a reboot, that they asked for, on account of 'That hedge fight was brutal. It was really hard fighting in a confined space. Can we have another go?'?

[Askren]

1. If you roll crits, you roll crits. Not much you can do about that. Every player has to learn to accept a crit gracefully, because it happens to everyone at least once. That said, I can't really get a full picture of their tactics to decide what they did in return and if it was solid or not.

2. I'd say yes, but that's me. I see no indication that the brambles can be fired out of, they are too thick to see through. Woodland stride lets him walk through them normally, but not see in and out perfectly, much less find the tiny hole he can aim through. I wouldn't allow this. So when he moves in, he's un-targetable, but also can't target others. That's only fair.

3. I mean, if you used his abilities as-written (besides the cover thing), then I don't see why not. As long as it's within the scope of the rules, I have no real qualm with an enemy going all-out trying to kill a party. I mean, that's their job, right? You have to really make it seem like they want to kill them, or the encounter is pointless.

But the important part, as Snorter said, is to always think from their perspective. What do they know about their area? What are their goals in this fight? When they make an action in combat, is it solely to destroy the players, or is it to fight them off while achieving those goals? In this case, Gogmurt wants to keep them away from the bridge at C9. I don't know exactly where your fight happened, but his goal should be to push them back from there.

4. Sorry, I can't figure out what this is referring to.

Here's some questions I want to know:
-Were you applying the squeezing penalties in all the rooms, or just the tunnels? They only apply in the tunnels between rooms, so not in C3, C5, C6, C7, etc.
-Where were the goblin dogs and goblins?
-Were the players aware of Gogmurt's location as he moved around to flank? Remember that his Produce Flame and Flame Sword give off torchlight (they're fire, remember?), so even if they can't see exactly where he is, it's dark in the tunnels and they should be able to spot his flickering light if they look.

Let me give you a rundown about how this fight went in my group, they just did it:

First, the players followed the drag marks of the horse through the Howling Hole room, and when they hit the path north out of there, the dogs caught their scent. One broke free of it's leash and charged, putting the players in combat. Three rounds or so of barking and fighting was enough for Gogmurt to be alerted, send his message, and then send his pet out to flank while he went behind the players. He hit them all with Entangle, which covered the north exit of C3 and the tunnel area between C5 and C6/C9. Gogmurt then fled into the forest, but his cat couldn't make it and caught a power attack and died. After setting himself up on the other side of the entangle area, Gogmurt began throwing fire, while a howl from the Hole caught the player's attention from the other side. This also gave the goblins in C4 a chance to attempt to sneak around the players to get behind them, but being goblins, they failed and were noticed (some of them). Gogmurt fled through the brambles in the north (still uninjured at this point), while the players engaged the goblins around the Howling Hole, as Gogmurt popped out near them to rally the goblins to fight the invaders. Here he got a chance to pop out of the brambles and land a fire sword crit on a PC, and duel with another for a bit before taking a few attacks, but goblins were being cut down fast. Slayer PC got Enlarge'd and Gogmurt attempted to flee, got stabbed for his trouble and at 1 health (I may have fudged it here by giving him an extra HP so he didn't die right then), instead of escaping into the bramble, kind of fell into them, and then dragged himself inside to save his skin. Enlarge'd PC reached in, pulled him out, and Gogmurt surrendered, the rest of the goblins already routed and fleeing.

The reason I think it went well, as told by the players, is that having the combination of the druid with the fire throwing popping in and out to keep them guessing, the Entagle blocking their exit, and the rallying goblin charge halfway through the fight, there were a lot of elements going on here that kept everyone on their toes. Rather than make it three separate encounters, all very easy, I made it one big encounter, and while my party is pretty good and sometimes I fudge things (Gogmurt never got flanking, so no Sneak Attack damage, though I could have if I really tried), it's about the story of the encounter rather than the mechanics.

[Kelvar Silvermace]

dragonhunterq wrote:

He instructed Tangletooth to always move into flanking position (The first trick a rogue with an AC is going to teach) so was usually hitting with produce flame at +5 touch attack 2d6+4 damage. With the squeezing, giving a -4 to everyone's AC (Except the Druids), he pretty much hits everyone on a 3.

How do you get 2d6+4 damage with Produce Flame? The most it can ever do is 1d6+5.

[dragonhunterq]

Thanks for all the responses. Tomorrow we see some new faces and head back for revenge (maybe :)) Gogmurt will be ready with some re-enthused (goblin sacrifice is such a morale booster!) bird-crunchers.

some clarification/answers/my logic (in no particular order, sorry).

No-one in the party that I can recall is hitting at +10 yet. The monk flurries at +5, EK is maybe +6. (I think)

Our druid was using Woodland stride to scout, and had the same advantage. His scouting was...um! less than effective. He made godly stealth checks so I showed him the map of the thickets and told him what critters were where. He went "OK" and proceeded to draw a big circle with a wavy line through it and said "that's our route" (I am neither joking or exaggerating) . The party pretty much had to go through it the hard way after that.

Tactically, Gogmurt is still a goblin, overconfidence is kind of a defining trait. I'd resolved that if Gogmurt was at all threatened (1/2 HP) he would have retreated, but he wasn't hit at all, the players were falling over so he had no logical reason to retreat.

Birdcruncher Goblins were apathetic and over the other side of the thicket the goblin dogs were already dead.

Squeezing was in all the thicket except the central room with the hole to the Bunyip. I'll reread that - my bad, but I only recall that room having anything resembling a description of opening up.

Players could see Gogmurt moving. He also wasn't firing out of the thicket, he was reaching out of them. Cover bonus (in my mind at the time) was the difficulty of striking without getting caught up on a branch or the like as much as concealment. If they had stepped away from the thickets he can't attack from them. his ranged damage is a lot less scary. But I can see an argument for lowering that to partial cover (+2AC)

The query about warning the rogue was, during the second run through, he moved from an area where he could move freely, to an area where he was squeezing and wasn't flanking. He could have moved in the opposite direction, flanked Gogmurt (next turn if not this) and stayed out of the corridors (and so no penalties). It might have turned the fight - or at least taken the pressure off for a little while, instead he was ineffective and left his allies in the lurch.

[dragonhunterq]

Kelvar Silvermace wrote:

dragonhunterq wrote:

He instructed Tangletooth to always move into flanking position (The first trick a rogue with an AC is going to teach) so was usually hitting with produce flame at +5 touch attack 2d6+4 damage. With the squeezing, giving a -4 to everyone's AC (Except the Druids), he pretty much hits everyone on a 3.

How do you get 2d6+4 damage with Produce Flame? The most it can ever do is 1d6+5.

Sneak attack

[Mudfoot]

Sounds like bad luck, a less-than ideal party structure and player incompetence.

[Latrecis]

Mudfoot wrote:

Sounds like bad luck, a less-than ideal party structure and player incompetence.

Incompetence will overwhelm even good luck and ideal party structure.

I would argue that Gogmurt should get concealment not cover from the brambles since the vegetation does not block attacks in a meaningful way but rather makes him harder to see.