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This thread is to clarify any rules question about how the Primal Companion Hunters works (RAW) or should work (RAI). It has gotten my attention as a relatively more balanced version of Synthesist, and would like to clarify possible imbalances as to whether they're intended or not. To help with future searches, I'm focusing on the specific archetype, which according to my rather generic search does not currently exist in the Rules Questions forum.
Onto the questions!
1) Can/Should the Primal Companion Hunter (PCH) break the maximum number of natural attacks on themselves?
An animal companion transformed in this way cannot exceed the maximum number of attacks available to the eidolon of a summoner whose class level equals that of the hunter.
Assuming the PCH has an Antelope as their companion, this means the companion has 1 natural attack available from itself, and the evolution pool can add attacks until the total reaches the maximum number of attacks for an eidolon of equivalent level. At 20, this is a maximum of 7, so 6 attacks can be added. The abuse comes from this addendum:
If a primal companion hunter's animal companion is dead, she can apply these evolutions to herself instead of to her animal companion.
Since the first quotation states the maximum only applies to the animal companion, limbs permitting, the Hunter should be able to exceed the maximum number normally available to an eidolon, so long as the Hunter is not considered "an animal companion."
2) What is the effect of the large evolution on small, large, or huge creatures?
An eidolon grows in size, becoming Large.
I would assume a small creature would increase two size categories, while a large creature would not change in size. Since the bonuses are not typed as size, I assume those benefits are granted regardless.
The only case I am not sure about is PCH's prestiged into Mammoth Rider activating the effect on their Huge-sized mount. Would it decrease a size category to large? The wording of Large states it "grows," meaning it probably shouldn't shrink to achieve the set size category.
3) Should a PCH be allowed to take the Extra Evolution feat?
The rest are tied to this one:
-What occurs when a PCH multiclasses into Summoner, then takes the Extra Evolution Feat?
-What generally happens with a PCH multiclassed in Synthesist?
-Should evolution pool benefits from different sources consider extra sources at all times?
Example: Player picks PCH, kills companion, then takes Synthesist. Ignoring the natural attacks mess, they devote one evolution pool to stacking an attribute (such as strength), then devote the other evolution pool to increasing their size category. If the pools were tied, they would've had to spend twice as many evolution points for those strength attribute increases because they're benefiting from the Large evolution. However, the two are separate and neither breaks the rules until both are active on the same target.
The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.
That at least answers the last question. The eidolon has to be at least the same size as the summoner. So increasing your own size via hunter pool and then profiting from that as synth is not possible.
The other way 'round it would not help you to increase the eidolon's size and your own strength because when fused you use the eidolon's strength.
Are you certain? If the Synthesist/Hunter merges with an eidolon first, then activates Primal Transformation, are you saying the primal transformation would be suppressed unless the eidolon is sent back? That sets the precedent that all active supernatural abilities are negated/suppressed while merged with an eidolon. I guess that is one way of nerfing the archetype.
Regardless, thank you for your input and I believe I've seen similar responses for using active supernatural abilities targeting "the synthesist" while merged.
I've recently figured out another question:
4) How do limited usage evolutions interact with Primal Transformation?
Example: The Breath Weapon evolution grants one use per day to an eidolon. Does this mean no matter how the PCH's minutes are divided, it always gets exactly one breath weapon per day, or does each reactivation grant a fresh breath attack (assuming each minute increment has a downtime)?
What if the hunter uses one minute increment on their companion, activates the effect, then within the same day their companion dies? Would the hunter, being a separate creature as their now-dead companion, be allowed to use the breath weapon (though that means they're getting uses beyond the basic), or is Primal Transformation locked to a PC and can never add more no matter the events leading up to it?
I'd really like some sort of consensus, or at least an opinion not my own.
I'm going to keep my eye on this. Also if you want to see some fringe silliness with the primal hunter head over to my other thread.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rhis&page=4?Does-this-26-punches-pummeling -style-work#179
As for the large evolution, the eidolon has to be medium for large to be taken. I would also assume that for large companions all you should have to spend is the extra 6 to make them huge.
This thread is to clarify any rules question about how the Primal Companion Hunters works (RAW) or should work (RAI). It has gotten my attention as a relatively more balanced version of Synthesist, and would like to clarify possible imbalances as to whether they're intended or not. To help with future searches, I'm focusing on the specific archetype, which according to my rather generic search does not currently exist in the Rules Questions forum.
Onto the questions!
1) Can/Should the Primal Companion Hunter (PCH) break the maximum number of natural attacks on themselves?
An animal companion transformed in this way cannot exceed the maximum number of attacks available to the eidolon of a summoner whose class level equals that of the hunter.Assuming the PCH has an Antelope as their companion, this means the companion has 1 natural attack available from itself, and the evolution pool can add attacks until the total reaches the maximum number of attacks for an eidolon of equivalent level. At 20, this is a maximum of 7, so 6 attacks can be added. The abuse comes from this addendum:
If a primal companion hunter's animal companion is dead, she can apply these evolutions to herself instead of to her animal companion.Since the first quotation states the maximum only applies to the animal companion, limbs permitting, the Hunter should be able to exceed the maximum number normally available to an eidolon, so long as the Hunter is not considered "an animal companion."
From the way I am reading it you still have to select the evolutions as if your animal companion was alive, then you can apply them to your character. So in a roundabout way, you should still have the limitations. UNLESS you are playing a race with inherent natural attacks like a half-orc, which SHOULD let you exceed the number.
As for the large evolution, the eidolon has to be medium for large to be taken. I would also assume that for large companions all you should have to spend is the extra 6 to make them huge.
Is there any errata on there being a medium pre-req to taking the Large evolution? There is nothing in the evolution's description preventing a small-sized eidolon from taking it, and saving 4 points to boost a large companion to huge would reduce the cost of getting +16 strength. Also, how would a PCH interact with just the Huge evolution? They get the 16 strength as well even though they're jumping from small/medium?
You are missing part of the Large evolution description. The important part being: The eidolon must be Medium to take this evolution.So it can not be taken at all on a small, large or huge sized critter.
You're quite right, after re-reading the Large evolution more closely. Since such is the case, what occurs when a companion is medium, is slain, then the Hunter activates Primal Transformation on themselves while being a small race? The animal companion meets the criteria for Large, but the Hunter would not.
I would say that in general anything you, as the hunter, don't qualify for would be inactive. But I would say things like enlarge would help.
I would say that in general anything you, as the hunter, don't qualify for would be inactive. But I would say things like enlarge would help.
The problem with that is spells like enlarge person state "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack." Primal Transformation is a Supernatural ability, which states "They aren't subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or dispel magic, and don't function in antimagic areas."
Since they do not function within antimagic areas, they are most likely magic effects. Therefore, Primal Transformation (with the Large evolution) would not stack with Enlarge Person, even though that would be the only way for a small creature to become valid to benefit from the Large evolution.
I am still of the belief the Hunter benefits regardless of what evolutions are picked, as long as the animal companion is a valid template to take the evolution for the eidolon. For example, if the animal companion falls into the bipedal, quadruped, or serpentine rows from this table, then they can acquire evolutions that would require that body type normally (quadreped -> pounce, for example).
Slightly off topic but all this talk about using primal companion hunter to grab evolutions by killing the companion makes me want to play a primal hunter devoted to Lamashtu or the Old Cults who receives a ram animal companion to ritually sacrifice and consume with each increase in power. The idea has a delicious flavor to it.
After all you have to justify your companion being dead and staying dead without acquiring a new one or raising it from the dead.
No way the intent is to allow the hunter to acquire evolutions he himself does not qualify for.
No Wing Buffet without wings, for instance.
Which also means no pounce or mount.
Just buy the evos for limbs: legs for pounce or flight evo for wing buffet.
@Archomedes
I like it. I do wish the text didn't actually say dead, they could have easily worded it more openly having the same function.
To help out with discussion, I'll repeat the questions and the general consensus thus far:
1) Can/Should the Primal Companion Hunter (PCH) break the maximum number of natural attacks on themselves?
Answer: Yes.
2) What is the effect of the large evolution on small, large, or huge creatures?
Answer: The animal companion must meet the pre-requisite for evolutions to select them. For example, if an animal companion is small, large, or huge, it can not select the Large evolution (which requires a medium eidolon).
3) Should a PCH be allowed to take the Extra Evolution feat?
Answer: None given.
4) How do limited usage evolutions interact with Primal Transformation?
-If the Animal Companion uses a limited usage evolution and dies, can the PCH activate Primal Transformation on themselves and use it beyond the normal maximum?
Answer: None given.
5) Can the PCH benefit from evolutions they do not meet the pre-requisites to, but their animal companion does?
Answer: No. If the PCH is small, they cannot benefit from the Large evolution even if the animal companion is medium-sized. If the PCH does not have wings, they cannot benefit from the Wing Buffet evolution because their animal companion naturally has wings.
And for future clarification:
6) When the animal companion is dead, do HD-based evolutions (such as Breath Weapon) use the Animal Companion's HD or the PCH's HD to calculate damage?
7) Do pseudo-limbs (such as a Kobold's Gliding Wings racial trait) count as sufficient for benefiting from Wing Buffet, assuming their companion did not need the Wings evolution to take the Wing Buffet evolution?
8) Do evolutions gained from the Evolved Companion feat carry through Primal Transformation?
I'm pretty sure I know the answer to some of these, but I'm trying to think of possible future questions that could be thrown around with the Primal Companion Hunter.
I have a question to go along with this! The Primal Companion Hunter does not replace One with the Wild, but One with the Wild relies on the Animal Focus class feature to work from what I'm reading... What should be done with it? Or does the ability just become dead?