| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Are you kidding me>?
Look at the power point totals of 20th level Psion. Now look at the Wizrd chart.
It's clearly a FACT that Psion can cast 24 9th level spells per day and clearly a FACT that a Wizard gets 6 (if he is specialized).
I don't need to support "evidence" of this-- its right there on the class charts.
No one is arguing that a psion does not get enough PP to manifest 24 9th level powers or that a wizard can only cast 6 9th level spells. Your premises are true.
However, your conclusion that those facts mean the psion is more powerful does not necessarily follow. Yours is the literal definition of an "invalid argument".
You are completely disregarding all of the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spells a wizard can cast in addition to his 9th level spells. You have refused to acknowledge that those spells scale with wizard level, making them more useful than their spell level might imply. You also continue to ignore the flexibility advantage that a wizard enjoys - 6 9th level spells + myriad 1st-8th level spells versus 24 9th level powers.
Your argument, that a psion gets more 9th level powers and is thus superior, is oversimplifying the situation. By your logic, we could conclude that the wizard is clearly superior because he can cast more total spells than a psion can manifest powers. Or we could say the wizard is clearly superior because he has far more spell options than a psion has power options. Or the wizard is superior because none of his spells require expending a psionic focus. The situation is a whole lot more complicated than any of that.
+1 good sir.
Further, since Nathanael wants to talk about energy ray 20d6 = 9th level power, then we should also accept that any spell that scales up to 9th level equivalency is thus also a 9th level spell, yes? Goose and ganders and all that.
That means the 8th level spell polar ray is actually 10th level spell (19d6), 11th level...
Having just gotten back from a work meeting, I'd like to break this down in more depth. If we're taking "scaling at cost = 24 9th level powers!" then let's look at what free scaling gets wizards.
4 base 9th level spells, +1 from Int (if you do not have at least a 30 Int at 20th level you fail at your job, unless you're doing something weird).
4 base 8th level spells, +1 from Int
4 base 7th level spells, +1 from Int
4 base 6th level spells, +2 from Int
That equates to 5+5+5+6 spells that scale up to 9th level equivalents for 21 9th level spells! Let's hear it for the wizard! Big cheers, big cheers! And guess what, he's still got a crapton of lower level spells, like the 6th level spell scorching ray and the 8th level spell cone of cold! And if the wizard happens to be a specialist? 25 9th level spells!
This is the logical conclusion of Nathanael Love's argument. The argument that psions being able to expend more resources to get closer to a 9th level effect out of a lower spell level, and thus that equating to more 9th level powers and thus more power, has proven without a shadow of a doubt who is truly the most powerful: the wizard.
Because the wizard not only gets 21-25th 9th level spell equivalents, but also a ton of comparably powerful lower level spells, and unlike the psion they scale up FOR FREE. And wait, it gets better! Because not only is he throwing around 9th level equivalent spells, but those spells also have wiggle room for metamagic effects allowing the wizard to go beyond the limits of 9th or even 10th level spells, and access to metamagic rods to push them beyond their limits even further!
Then let's get into how much better pearls of power are compared to cognizance crystals despite costing the same amount. We can see that the wizard is getting a baller deal on them, because he's paying for an extra spell of X level but actually getting a spell of Y level out of it, because of free scaling. I mean, if a psion wants to get a 3rd level cognizance crystal (valued at 9,000 gp) so he can throw an extra energy bolt each day, he gets +5 PP and can't mix those PP with his usual PP, so that's always just going to do 5d6 damage. But a wizard? Oh, the wizard can buy a pearl for the same cost, except his spell scales to 10d6! He's getting the equivalent of a 25,000 gp cognizance crystal at a massive discount!
Those poor, poor wizards, being upstaged by those dirty psions. They're so pathetic that I might need to start using scrolls and other wizardly creations to "keep up", right?
What would a "good DM" do? I can think of quite a few counters to scry & fry tactics, but most generally require that the big bad also be a big bad wizard (preferably a hermit too); unless I'm just word of godding it, and at that point I'm just admitting there's a problem.I would imagine that even non-caster BBEGs are going to be paranoid enough when they hit a certain level to start lining the walls with lead and paying casters to ward the hell out of their lairs.
I also have a really entertaining Bravery feat I wrote for a Fighter BBEG that allows him to attack a square a caster has just teleported out of and leap through the weakened fabric of reality to chase down fleeing casters. Which is obviously not core or anything, but still fun and an example of the kind of stuff I wish we'd get for high level martials.
Firstly, that feat sounds baller. :P
The lead sheeting thing is actually one of the reasons I mentioned being a hermit. You basically have to stay bunkered down in your box-house that is going to give you brain-damaged babies 'cause of the lead paint, so that those scary casters out to get you don't come hurt you. Ever considered the amount of lead that you'd need to coat your average dungeon with? Yeesh.
If you decide being a hermit sitting in your tin-foil house isn't for you, then you need something like nondetection, but a magic item of nondetection that will actually matter to a serious caster is kind of a joke, in that it's so prohibitively expensive as to be unavailable to pretty much everyone. A CL 20th 24/7 item of non-detection costs a whopping 120,000 gp. That's do-able for very high-level PCs, but NPCs? They don't even have 120,000 gp until they're CR 19, let-alone enough to get it and buy gear with too. >_>
Though I suppose a 1/day nondetection item that had a 24th caster level might be somewhat feasible at 25,920 gp. Yeah that'd probably be for the best really, since it'd harder to detect you (DC 35, requiring at least a roll of 15 for a 20th level caster) and would last 24 hours.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
To be fair, the Psion can simply manifest 9th level powers 24 times where as the Wizard cannot. For example, an Egoist could manifest Greater Metamorphosis 24 times in a day if he so chose to do so. Where as the Wizard could cast it only 5 times (if specialized) in a day, or the Sorcerer 6 times.
Fun fact though, the Arcane caster gets 200 minutes per casting of Shapechange, while the Egoist gets up to only 17 minutes per manifestation of Greater Metamorphosis (if he manifests it at ML 20th, he can't manifest 24 9th level powers each day).
So, lets do some math! 17 minutes per manifestation times 24 manifestations each day equals 408 minutes of Greater Metamorphosis each day! Odd, a Wizard needs only 2 castings of Shapechange to achieve nearly the exact same duration. So that Egoist has blown all of his power points for the equivalent of 2 Wizard spells. The Wizard still has 3 more 9th level spells and all of hist 1st - 8th level spells left.
Man, them psionics is sure OP. Magics is teh sux0rz!
Holy mackerel, I didn't even notice the duration difference.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
What would a "good DM" do? I can think of quite a few counters to scry & fry tactics, but most generally require that the big bad also be a big bad wizard (preferably a hermit too); unless I'm just word of godding it, and at that point I'm just admitting there's a problem.I would imagine that even non-caster BBEGs are going to be paranoid enough when they hit a certain level to start lining the walls with lead and paying casters to ward the hell out of their lairs.
I also have a really entertaining Bravery feat I wrote for a Fighter BBEG that allows him to attack a square a caster has just teleported out of and leap through the weakened fabric of reality to chase down fleeing casters. Which is obviously not core or anything, but still fun and an example of the kind of stuff I wish we'd get for high level martials.
Firstly, that feat sounds baller. :P
The lead sheeting thing is actually one of the reasons I mentioned being a hermit. You basically have to stay bunkered down in your box-house that is going to give you brain-damaged babies 'cause of the lead paint, so that those scary casters out to get you don't come hurt you. Ever considered the amount of lead that you'd need to coat your average dungeon with? Yeesh.
If you decide being a hermit sitting in your tin-foil house isn't for you, then you need something like nondetection, but a magic item of nondetection that will actually matter to a serious caster is kind of a joke, in that it's so prohibitively expensive as to be unavailable to pretty much everyone. A CL 20th 24/7 item of non-detection costs a whopping 120,000 gp. That's do-able for very high-level PCs, but NPCs? They don't even have 120,000 gp until they're CR 19, let-alone enough to get it and buy gear with too. >_>
Though I suppose a 1/day nondetection item that had a 24th caster level might be somewhat feasible at 25,920 gp. Yeah that'd probably be for the best really, since it'd harder to detect you (DC...
In Pathfinder, my preference for caster strongholds is the Create Demiplane spells with awesome melee minions. See, you use Lesser Demiplane with permanency for your basic structure. Then you use castings of Create Demiplane and Greater Demiplane to add stuff, because when you use any of the Create Demiplane to alter a plane, the duration becomes instantaneous (which means permanent). So you first use Greater Demiplane to add in a permanent gate (so you can get out), then you give the demiplane the 'dead magic' trait (which functions like antimagic field. Drop in some beasties who don't need magic of any sort to kill PCs and then watch them cry as they enter the demiplane for the final showdown, only to find that all of their thousands of GP of magical items... stop working. Dem martials get eated right up and spitted out.
Bonus points if you hand a sign over the Gate that says "Exit" on it so the PCs know where to flee too with their tails between their legs.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The feat was:
You have learned how to fearlessly chase down your foe no matter where, or how, they flee.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (planes) 7 ranks, Fighter level 15, Bravery class feature
Benefit: When an opponent uses a spell with the (teleportation) keyword to transport themselves to another location, you may attempt to follow them. As a standard action, make a single melee attack in the square they vacated against an AC of 30 and a Knowledge (planes) skill check with a DC of 25, adding your Bravery bonus to both rolls. If your attack and skill check both succeed, your strike is able to tear the fabric of reality weakened by your opponent's spell, allowing you to immediately transport yourself to an open square in the same location your enemy teleported to. Failure on either check causes this ability to fail. You may use this ability 1/day plus 1 additional time per day for each Bravery feat you know in addition to this one.
Durations are a big deal between psionic and arcane powers. The average durations of arcane powers (in my experience, maybe it's just the powers and spells I tend to use) are much, much longer than their arcane equivalents.
The funny thing is, even if you don't do any wand cheesing with mnemonic enhancer, you can still use it to get a truckload of 9th level spells if that's really what you want to do.
A wizard with 32 Int gets:
6 3rd level spells
6 4th level spells
6 5th level spells
6 6th level spells
5 7th level spells
5 8th level spells
5 9th level spells
With an additional +1 at each spell level if they're a specialist. If you prepare and use mnemonic enhancer in all of those 3rd to 8th level slots, you can prepare an extra 11 9th level spells, putting you at 16 (or 17) a day. And considering that a wizard's 9th level spells on their spell list are dramatically more variable and spammable (wail of the banshee, shapechange, time stop, mass hold monster, mage's disjunction, etc), that's a helluva lot more firepower than the psion is getting. If you're a transmutation specialist even, you get 19 total 9th level spells.
Not that you should actually do that. You'd be horribly weakening yourself by giving up all those juicy lower level spells and cutting yourself down to only the 9th. But it's an amusing thought. And if you combine the paradigm with 3rd level pearls of power, it means a wizard can purchase a 9th level slot per day for 27,000 gp (3 3rd level pearls), which is amusing.
More 3.5 Psionics, less other things?
Thanks!
(Some great ideas, though, guys! Love that feat, Sslarn!)
((Normally, I'm not opposed to a good derail, and, in fact, love it, but this particular thread was built with the purpose of having a "reference" thread to show others at a future point in time. The "first case" is intended to be just that - a "first case", instead of the "only case".))
EDIT: Incidentally, Sslarn, you, uh, wouldn't mind... putting that feat here, would you? No, no reason... no reason... :)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
More 3.5 Psionics, less other things?
Thanks!
(Some great ideas, though, guys! Love that feat, Sslarn!)
((Normally, I'm not opposed to a good derail, and, in fact, love it, but this particular thread was built with the purpose of having a "reference" thread to show others at a future point in time. The "first case" is intended to be just that - a "first case", instead of the "only case".))
EDIT: Incidentally, Sslarn, you, uh, wouldn't mind... putting that feat here, would you? No, no reason... no reason... :)
So, uh, let me make one last attempt to follow up with them and if they still don't get back to me I'll post the whole block up in your thread.
So, I think the majority of people who've taken the time to read the materials pretty much agree that Dreamscarred Press has refined and released probably the most balanced and awesome "magic" subsystem in the Pathfinder game. I think it's really worthwhile to note that Endzeitgeist, one of the most respected and thorough 3pp reviewers around, gave it a 5 star review and specifically called out how well it compared to "the great 3.5-version" of psionics.
A few points off of that:
1) Possibly the best known and most respected person professionally reviewing gaming content for 3.5 and Pathfinder has noted the excellent quality of the system in both editions. And Endzeitgeist knows a thing or two about balance and doesn't hesitate to call a duck a duck.
2) DSP primarily added to the existing content, and made the necessary conversions to "Pathfinderize" psionics. They probably changed that system less from 3.5 to PF than Paizo changed the core materials, and moost of the changes they made were to make weak options stronger. If the premise that the power point and augmentation system is flawed at its core, there is no way that the DSP psionic materials could be balanced while the 3.5 ones were broken, because they use the same system with the same strengths and weaknesses.
3) It's been stated that if psionic spells are worse than their arcane equivalents it is only the case because less books of psionics have been published with fewer total spell effect available in the system. DSP has put the lie to that by releasing a tome that includes over 100 pages of psionic powers. Same system, more options, still loved by fans and reviewers alike.
So, despite the fact that some people want to say that people who like psionics are just "the worst kind of players" looking for a system they can "scam a GM into allowing so they can abuse it", it's clear that that's not the case. And you don't have to take my word for it, you can ask the most respected reviewer in the business and he'll tell you the same. Kudos to those like Tels and Ashiel with their excellent summations of the comparative strengths and weaknesses of specific spells and powers to really show the nuances that separate psionics and arcane magic.
And as for the all day nova it is only a problem for GM's whose world's revolve around the character and allow them to use the "I nova, I rest" pattern. But in that game the sorcerer or wizard can nova also once the players figure out the GM lets them "auto replenish" their resources.
Which brings in "Scry and Fry" or its reversal of "Fry and Fky" when you Nova then Tport out.
You are correct in that a good DM wont let PC get away with that indefinitely.
But if we're talking theorycraft, then indeed they can.
Well theorycrafting works both ways, and so does actual gameplay since both methods show in actual games and lead to varying results. That is when I tell people it is not psionics that is the problem, but psionics + the way you run your games. Not every option in PF/3.5 is compatible with everyone's style of play. That does not mean the option is broken or someone is playing the game wrong. It just means you as a GM need to not have some things at your table. However you choosing to not have the option does not mean the option does not work. It means that it does not work for you(general statement). I don't like the words of power alternate spell system as an example. I won't say it can't work, but I can say I don't see myself ever allowing it if I am the GM.
What would a "good DM" do? I can think of quite a few counters to scry & fry tactics, but most generally require that the big bad also be a big bad wizard (preferably a hermit too); unless I'm just word of godding it, and at that point I'm just admitting there's a problem.
I think one problem with scry and fry is that you can get to the BBEG before you are a high enough level to deal with him. Many GM's don't want to kill the players for using tactics that make sense in the game world, so the bad guy dies. Of course this may also mean they bypassed a few other things, which I guess can be annoying.
There are solutions but using the same tactic over and over again are boring to some people. Basically style is getting in the way of substance.
I think there are solutions, but not ones many GM's want to use just based on how they want to play the game.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think one problem with scry and fry is that you can get to the BBEG before you are a high enough level to deal with him. ***
This is actually something that happened to a party in one of my games, and it was actually kind of funny. The party had been almost a little too smart, and had completely missed a whole swath of encounters designed to get the up to the appropriate level (I'll give you experience for out-talking, out-thinking, or otherwise dealing with a critter without killing it, but I'm not going to give you xp for a tower full of traps and golems when you just flew directly to the top of the tower while invisible, as an example) and ambushed the evil enemy cleric while he was on the privy. Not missing a beat, the cleric fires off a quickened heal (some jokes about his metamagic rod followed...) and hurtles into the party with his pants still down, casting a dimensional lock spell to prevent them from escaping. Even with him suffering from the entangled condition for half of the fight, the level difference was severe enough that the party had to beat a retreat on foot. A couple of them leapt out a window and managed to get away, but the other three ran into the keep they'd teleported directly into the heart of, and ultimately perished due to all of the guards and traps that hadn't been cleared out.
Microcosm has a hit point limit that is so low the next full attack from any martials on your team would have killed it anyway. In addition it is a will save which many high level monsters laugh at, or they are flat out immune to.
If you are using it on a group of monsters an AoE could kill them all.
Why are you taking this power again?
Neither version I'm looking at offers a Will save. It is still a mind-affecting ability so has all that baggage though. It still is a better version of power word kill (which isn't necessarily saying much as it isn't the best spell either).
((Normally, I'm not opposed to a good derail, and, in fact, love it, but this particular thread was built with the purpose of having a "reference" thread to show others at a future point in time. The "first case" is intended to be just that - a "first case", instead of the "only case".))
I've been sitting by the thread for a while and I don't think that this thread does a great job of that. There are several pages and not many arguments that I feel are really that good. If you want to point people at this thread at a later point of time as a reference, there is so much to slog through right now for very little positive content.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Really? All the examples, numbers and links to other sources for further reading aren't positive content? o.O
Microcosm has a hit point limit that is so low the next full attack from any martials on your team would have killed it anyway. In addition it is a will save which many high level monsters laugh at, or they are flat out immune to.
If you are using it on a group of monsters an AoE could kill them all.
Why are you taking this power again?Neither version I'm looking at offers a Will save. It is still a mind-affecting ability so has all that baggage though. It still is a better version of power word kill (which isn't necessarily saying much as it isn't the best spell either).
((Normally, I'm not opposed to a good derail, and, in fact, love it, but this particular thread was built with the purpose of having a "reference" thread to show others at a future point in time. The "first case" is intended to be just that - a "first case", instead of the "only case".))I've been sitting by the thread for a while and I don't think that this thread does a great job of that. There are several pages and not many arguments that I feel are really that good. If you want to point people at this thread at a later point of time as a reference, there is so much to slog through right now for very little positive content.
I was not even thinking of that crappy spell, but good point. I was just saying that using microcosm is a waste of PP. You are correct, that it has no save though, and I did miss it.
edit:As for the reference point, I agree. It is just like the other psionic threads. The only way to make it a reference is to compile all of the arguments and their counters, and make a document. If people are expected to search this thread they can just search any of the other threads for answers, and many of them are longer than this one.
Really? All the examples, numbers and links to other sources for further reading aren't positive content? o.O
I missed that. It is not that there is no positive content, but it is not organized enough to be a reference anymore than the other threads were since almost all of them also had links and rules quotes to back up their arguments.
Really? All the examples, numbers and links to other sources for further reading aren't positive content? o.OI missed that. It is not that there is no positive content, but it is not organized enough to be a reference anymore than the other threads were since almost all of them also had links and rules quotes to back up their arguments.
We should get right on that. Unfortunately I will have to wait until I get home from work. *runs out the door*
I think one problem with scry and fry is that you can get to the BBEG before you are a high enough level to deal with him. ***This is actually something that happened to a party in one of my games, and it was actually kind of funny. The party had been almost a little too smart, and had completely missed a whole swath of encounters designed to get the up to the appropriate level (I'll give you experience for out-talking, out-thinking, or otherwise dealing with a critter without killing it, but I'm not going to give you xp for a tower full of traps and golems when you just flew directly to the top of the tower while invisible, as an example) and ambushed the evil enemy cleric while he was on the privy. Not missing a beat, the cleric fires off a quickened heal (some jokes about his metamagic rod followed...) and hurtles into the party with his pants still down, casting a dimensional lock spell to prevent them from escaping. Even with him suffering from the entangled condition for half of the fight, the level difference was severe enough that the party had to beat a retreat on foot. A couple of them leapt out a window and managed to get away, but the other three ran into the keep they'd teleported directly into the heart of, and ultimately perished due to all of the guards and traps that hadn't been cleared out.
In a case like this the party should be on the same page about whether or not there should be metagaming to get more XP. It can be good because the party does not skip encounters, but they might also kill something just to level up, and then be accused of metagaming, but that is another topic, and connected to the issue of "metagaming xp" than it is to scry and fry.
Really? All the examples, numbers and links to other sources for further reading aren't positive content? o.O
Had a post, but it really just mostly repeated what wraithstrike said.
Was never arguing that the positive content wasn't there, just that it was being drowned out.
Hence, trying to get it back on track.
That equates to 5+5+5+6 spells that scale up to 9th level equivalents for *drumroll* 21 9th level spells! Let's hear it for the wizard! Big cheers, big cheers! And guess what, he's still got a crapton of lower level spells, like the 6th level spell scorching ray and the 8th level spell cone of cold! And if the wizard happens to be a specialist? 25 9th level spells!
Except you are leaving Saving throw scaling out of your equation.
Cone of Cold for a 15th level caster deals 15d6 (average 52.5) with a save of DC 20 for half. An average 15th level creature has +13 on its poor save so it will need to roll only a 7 or higher to succeed, effectively halving the damage 65% of the time.
By comparison, the Psionic equivalent Psychokinesis for instance (starting at 5th level) starts at 9d6 +1 per power point spent, so 15d6 for the 15 PP that an 8th level spell costs with a +3 bonus to its save DC for spending 6 additional power points bringing the save DC up 23, which reduces the percentage of saves for half to 50%.
Add to that, the Psion gets to select energy type at will without feat investment, can select between Fortitude or Reflex save, can add +1 damage per die (upping average damage to 67.5), or choose an additional +2 to the Save DC (for 40% damage reduction chance) its clear that the Psionic power is an actual 8th level spell, whereas the Wizard's Cone of Cold is not.
Save DCs matter, and the fact that virtually all the Psionic powers gain increases to them when scaling while the Wizard spells do not can't be ignored.
Your point? Magic has metamagic rods and solid methods to boost save DCs (like Spell Focus), psionics has Psionic Endowment, which lets you burn your psionic focus to increase the DC of a spell by 1 (preventing the use of metapsionics, shutting off some abilities, and being exclusive with all other uses of psionic focus). Not to mention that the psion has significantly less "spells" per day than a wizard does, as has been adequately demonstrated in multiple people's posts.
In addition, only Kineticist psions (psions that focus on blasting with energy damage) can do that. Not any psion.
You seem to have a bizarre fixation on doing damage with casting/manifesting, when that's one of the weakest things you can be doing. I think it's coloring your perception of the discussion pretty badly, especially since nobody is arguing that core wizards are better at blasting than psions (they aren't). That said, if you go outside core, or look at Pathfinder... you'll see things like wizards throwing 12d6+2 fireballs (that deal whatever energy type is desirable at the moment) at 5th level, which a psion can never hope to match.
My point is you can't claim that Cone of Cold is an 8th level spell when based on the math it is not equal to an 8th level spell.
Yes, that particular spell is only available to Kineticists-- but the 7th level version (Energy Wave) and the 3rd level version (Energy Ball) get the same benefits-- an Energy Ball enhanced from 3rd level all the way up to 15 PP has had its Save DC boosted equivalently, where as the "free scaling" Wizard spells have not.
I don't find comparing Damage, the part of the game that can be measured and mathematically compared to be a "bizarre fixation."
Also-- the Save DC increase doesn't only apply to damage dealing effects. It also applies to Charm effects, et al-- basically any effect with a save spending more power points for any reason on it increases its Save DC to the same as the value of a spell/power of the slot that costs the same as the number of PP spent.
This leads to the very heart of my point-- in combat, with any given action, the Psion can use each given action after the first six more effectively.
If in the 7th round of a combat it would make tactical sense to use domination effect on a humanoid, the Wizard casts dominate person with a DC 20 save, whereas the Psion can spend another 20 power points on another 9th level equivalent and boost the save DC for Psionic Dominate up to 25 or a full 125% effectiveness of the Wizard's option.
The Wizard can only achieve the same boost by combining a meta-magic feat and using the higher level spell slot (which he is limited on).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
No, I mean picking whatever energy type you want. You have to specifically be a Kineticist psion, which is like being an Evocation specialist wizard.
That's a rather odd claim. Let's compare fireball with energy ball, then, since you mentioned them.
Fireball scales up to 10d6 maximum (35 average), and always costs a 3rd level slot (the equivalent of 5 pp).
Energy ball scales up to 10d6+10 with 10 pp (45 average), and costs 10 pp (the rough equivalent of a 5.5th level spell slot).
Now, since energy ball has been augmented, its DC is 2 points higher than fireball's. Against a target with a 50% chance of saving against the energy ball, this means fireball is 20% less likely to succeed.
Against a target with a 50% chance of saving, the energy ball deals (45*.5)+(22.5*.5)=33.75 damage on average.
Against that same target, due to the 60 chance of saving, the fireball deals (35*.4)+(17.5*.6)=24.5 damage on average energy ball deals about 38% more damage on average, but costs twice as much in resources as the fireball does.
Against lower saves things favor the fire ball slightly more (with a 25% chance of saving, 39.375 for energy ball and 28.875 for fireball, a 36% increase for energy ball), and against higher saves things favor the energy ball slightly more (with a 75% chance of saving, 28.125 for the energy ball and 20.125 for the fireball, a 40% increase for the fire ball).
And if you go even further, and toss Intensify Spell into the mix and compare that now 4th level (though still with the save DC of a 3rd level) spell at the same things eating a 15 pp energy ball, you get this.
Energy Ball: 15d6+15 (67.5 average), 15 pp
Fire Ball: 15d6 (52.5 average), DC 5 points lower, 7 pp equivalent cost
Energy Ball's Performance
vs 50% saves: 50.625
vs 25% saves: 59.0625
vs 75% saves: 42.1875
Fire Ball's Performance
vs 50% (75%) saves: 32.8125
vs 25% (50%) saves: 39.375
vs 75% (95%) saves: 27.5625
Or, roughly a 54% increase for energy ball, when it costs 214% as much. So, still not overpowered, even if its relative strength does increase slightly over time. And that's just comparing it to one spell, not what better one might be on hand, not looking at things that are far more important than dealing damage with spells (both of these spells are doing pretty pitiful damage for the level you're using them at, you're far better off with battlefield control, summoning, and no-save effects).
No, I mean picking whatever energy type you want. You have to specifically be a Kineticist psion, which is like being an Evocation specialist wizard.
Thats incorrect. Any psion gets to pick the energy type. At least in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
Edit: Wait. I think that may of been one of the stupid changes from Complete Psionic. Another reason to ignore that book.
Ah. I was remembering Dreamscarred Press' version, which does have that restriction. Mea culpa.
That said, you do still have to be a Kineticist to get most of the desirable offensive energy powers. Energy burst, while it sounds like a fireball is surprisingly quite bad. :P
In 3.5 Intensify spell is an epic ability that maximizes then doubles the effects, not the pathfinder ability I believe you are referencing. When you strip out that higher powered new PF specific feat option the fireball's effectiveness drops.
And per the d20 SRD the choice of energy is part of the power-- the only abilities the Psion's choice of discipline affects are the added class skills and the added powers.
@137ben-- the words spells and powers are essentially interchangeable. A Psions 9th level spell is called a power and his caster level is called his manifestor level but these are essentially the same thing. Effectively the word power is shorthand for "psionic spell".
With the magic-psionics transparencies rules the game treats them the same-- Power Resistance applies to spells and Spell Resistance applies to powers, ect. With very few exceptions the words are equal.
Would you prefer the semantic change of calling both "9th level effects?"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yes, the fact that it's part of the power itself was already addressed. Thank you.
The comparison stays pretty much the same if you exchange the second part with cone of cold instead of fireball. Costs ~67% more than cone of cold instead of 114% more, and wizards still have more resources total in their pool.
A psion with 32 Int has 453 pp. A wizard has a net in translated spell levels of 463pp, not counting spell levels that are increased in efficiency due to free scaling. A specialist wizard has the equivalent of 544 pp.
Yes, the fact that it's part of the power itself was already addressed. Thank you.
The comparison stays pretty much the same if you exchange the second part with cone of cold instead of fireball. Costs ~67% more than cone of cold instead of 114% more, and wizards still have more resources total in their pool.
A psion with 32 Int has 453 pp. A wizard has a net in translated spell levels of 463pp, not counting spell levels that are increased in efficiency due to free scaling. A specialist wizard has the equivalent of 544 pp.
But a Wizard has fewer spells that can be fired at maximum effectiveness.
Would a Psion be less fair if he received more power points but was required to spend those power points in smaller chunks?
You're giving the Wizard a lot of credit for 1st and 2nd level spells which have a greatly reduced effectiveness as the game goes on. . . if the Psion got 10 more power points that could only be used to cast 1 and 3 cost powers would that actually gain him an equivalent amount of value?
If so-- why? What can the Psion effectively gain with 10 extra power points spent on two 3 point powers and four 1 points powers (or three 3 point and one 1 point powers)?
Also, point of order-- where did you arrive at 32 for the Int score that we should be using as the baseline? Even in generous games that high of an Int has rarely been seen natural 18, racial +2, five adjustments from leveling, plus a manual +5? Just wondering where the total is coming from. . .I've figured everything against a baseline of 20 Int for Psions and Wizards alike.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
16 base +2 race + 5 levels + 5 inherent + 6 enhancement gives you 34. I tend to be conservative and assume 32, since people might not push their casting score that hard, and might diversify to strengthen their defenses and reduce susceptibility to ability damage knockouts, or just not be optimizing. Starting with a 14, or having a 16 with no racial bonus produces a 32 endgame (without tricks like binding/simulacrum-ing succubi, that a wizard can use to produce better ability scores).
For what it's worth, if you go up another 2 the psion gets an additional 10 pp, while the wizard gets another 8th level spell and 4th level spell (or equivalent 22 pp, still being conservative). And if you go up to 36, the wizard gets a 1st, 5th, and 9th level slot (27 pp).
Also, 1st-3rd level spells are 13.5% (63 pp) of their total firepower. 7th-9th level spells are 51.4% (238 pp). With school specialization, it's 13.2% (72 pp) and 52% (283 pp), so roughly the same.
Yes, the fact that it's part of the power itself was already addressed. Thank you.
The comparison stays pretty much the same if you exchange the second part with cone of cold instead of fireball. Costs ~67% more than cone of cold instead of 114% more, and wizards still have more resources total in their pool.
A psion with 32 Int has 453 pp. A wizard has a net in translated spell levels of 463pp, not counting spell levels that are increased in efficiency due to free scaling. A specialist wizard has the equivalent of 544 pp.
But a Wizard has fewer spells that can be fired at maximum effectiveness.
Would a Psion be less fair if he received more power points but was required to spend those power points in smaller chunks?
You're giving the Wizard a lot of credit for 1st and 2nd level spells which have a greatly reduced effectiveness as the game goes on. . . if the Psion got 10 more power points that could only be used to cast 1 and 3 cost powers would that actually gain him an equivalent amount of value?
If so-- why? What can the Psion effectively gain with 10 extra power points spent on two 3 point powers and four 1 points powers (or three 3 point and one 1 point powers)?
Also, point of order-- where did you arrive at 32 for the Int score that we should be using as the baseline? Even in generous games that high of an Int has rarely been seen natural 18, racial +2, five adjustments from leveling, plus a manual +5? Just wondering where the total is coming from. . .I've figured everything against a baseline of 20 Int for Psions and Wizards alike.
Well... +6 enhancement bonus and a +5 manual are possible for a +11 right there. If you start with an Int of 18 (16+2), and put 3 level ups into Int, you've not got an Int of 32.
[Edit] And.... ninja'd while catching up in the thread.
For funzies; I'm not aware of any creatures you could do this with in 3.5 (and they're almost certainly not in core), but in Pathfinder a wizard can get an Int of 42 (at least- other tricks might exist, but I can't remember them).
18 Base + 2 Int + 5 levels + 5 Inherent + 6 Enhancement = 36
Create a simulacrum of Nocticula and have it use Profane Ascension on you for a +6 Profane bonus to Int. This simulacrum can be created as early as 14th level by using a Bead of Karma to boost your caster level, otherwise at 18th level.
Yeah. It's kinda silly. :P
For funzies; I'm not aware of any creatures you could do this with in 3.5 (and they're almost certainly not in core), but in Pathfinder a wizard can get an Int of 42 (at least- other tricks might exist, but I can't remember them).
18 Base + 2 Int + 5 levels + 5 Inherent + 6 Enhancement = 36
Create a simulacrum of Nocticula and have it use Profane Ascension on you for a +6 Profane bonus to Int. This simulacrum can be created as early as 14th level by using a Bead of Karma to boost your caster level, otherwise at 18th level.Yeah. It's kinda silly. :P
Well you could cast polymorph any object on yourself twice to turn yourself into a planetar or something with a massive base intelligence (planetars have Int 22, Pit Fiends Int 26 IIRC) before level adjustments, inherents, buffs, etc.
Alternatively, you could obtain a way to cast wish as a spell-like ability (simulacrum, planar binding, other tricks) and then wish for a magic item that gave you the Intelligence you want.
Wizard: "I wish for a Headband of Intellect +9001."
Wish: "Very well. That will have a component cost of 3,240,725,040 XP,"
Wizard: "That's cool. I ignore the cost."
Keep in mind though-- in 3.5 there are no core races with a +2 to Intelligence.
Even expanding past core you almost always have to take a level adjustment to get +2 Int, unless you get deep enough into splats that you are using Minor Plane-touched which is combining non-core races with an option from a Forgotten Realms product.
Polymorph Any Object can't do Outsiders-- it works like one of (baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud), of which only Polymorph is a self cast buff.
Polymorph can only get you-- aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. So no Polymorphing into Planetars an using Wishes for headbands/ect.
Also, even if you find a high int race from one of those to switch to-- your inherent buff is part of your form, you wouldn't swap to the higher int then add your inherent bonus to it-- you'd simply gain the 22 Int (then add enhancement bonus), but your level adjustments and +5 from 5 wishes/book are gone.
I know that by 20th level 36,000 and even the 165,000 are trivial by WBL, but in 3.5 you do have 80,000 or so less than in PF, and less at each level up to that. I never feel like assuming those purchases is a sure bet.
Well, if we're talking wizards they're free just by using planar binding on Efreeti.
Yeah, I know getting a +2 racial bonus to Int isn't a sure thing in 3.x. Hence part of the conservative Int estimate; it's attainable just by putting a 16 in your score at level 1 with no racial bonus.
Planar binding only compels the Efreeti to show up, assuming it fails a Will save. It has no effect on compelling it to grant wishes.
I find this "summon X, gain free wishes" logic to be suspect at best-- this game is run by an intelligent DM. I, and I believe many other DMs don't allow 6th and 7th level spells to generate 9th level spells.
Regardless-- there is nothing in the text of planar binding that even suggests the creature has to serve you and it specifically states "Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to."
I have cast 6th level spell to bring you here, now grant unto me 3 wishes for free certainly falls into the category of an unreasonable command in my estimation.
"Use your SLAs that don't cost you anything" is not an unreasonable demand by any stretch of the imagination. And it certainly does compel the creature to accept your deal; that's what the opposed Charisma check is for.
Thanks for implying that me and my friends are stupid, by the way.
I'm done with this Aratrok-- you're in the range of requiring the table to be run a certain way, which is not specified in the rules of the game.
Lower level spells granting Wishes is an abuse or an exploit. You can play that way if you want, I do not and for the purposes of discussing balance you can't build the discussion based on assuming that those exploits are allowed. That's like me trying to argue balance against your house rules.
You say granting tons of wishes with 6th level spells is reasonable, I say its a request that will be automatically denied regardless-- neither is specified as correct in the rules, so building your argument on every sixth level spell slot a Wizard has being effectively 3 wishes doesn't really hold up.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think you're said you're "done with this" a few times in this thread. You need to calm down.
Yes. It is an abuse and an exploit (or at least in 3.x, where wish is dramatically stronger- it's not really much of an issue in PF). That doesn't make it go away.
The thing is, you're defining unreasonable as something determined by the GM individually or by game balance, which is pretty meta. The real question is what's unreasonable to the creature being bound. And as far as the things they could actually be bound to do, giving away wishes is something they'd probably prefer. It's totally risk free (unlike being commanded to be a guardian, or go after a specific target, where you risk death), and costs the efreeti nothing to perform since their SLAs will return the next day. If you want to be nice, you can even offer them the payment of making a few wishes on their behalf (with conditions to protect yourself, of course).
There's plenty of justification for a Lawful Evil Efreet not enjoying or relishing giving wishes, in fact quite the opposite--
Efreet are infamous for their hatred of servitude, desire for revenge, cruel nature, and ability to beguile and mislead.
That does't ring of "Would love to grant you wishes that do exactly as you desire" to me.
Grant Wishes (Sp): Some efreeti (1% of the total population) are “noble” and can grant up to three wishes to any being (non-genies only) who captures them. Noble efreet perform no other services and, upon granting the third wish, are free of their servitude. Whenever possible, an efreeti will twist the words of a wish to bring pain and destruction upon the wisher.
Who is to say that when you wish for the item it doesn't also reduce your constitution by the same amount? That it doesn't also act as a homing beacon that calls down the wrath of a super powerful benevolent outsider?
This entire discussion is a derail-- and not a productive one; it is 100% impossible to say with certainty how any encounter with an Efreet whether summoned or otherwise will go outside of my own (or in your case you own) table.
I suggest leaving things like this that are so dependent on the game table out of balance discussions which they aren't the primary factor of-- I'm sure we could get to a 60+ page post on just the topic of Efreet's and what should/could happen when you ask them for wishes under planar binding.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The rules are to say that when you wish for the item it doesn't reduce your constitution by the same amount. It doesn't say it does that, so it doesn't do that.
It's not dependent on table play style. It's dependent on the use of house rules that negate it. We're not talking about a house ruled game, we're talking about the standard rules with no baggage attached. Regardless, it's not that relevant to the discussion- a wizard can acquire their Int bonus with or without the use of Efreet. Money is rarely a problem for them anyway, and with their demiplanes they've got plenty of time and isolation to build items and cast long casting time spells with.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Another case of "I can't argue against it, so it's not allowed in this discussion!"
Seriously, any time someone makes brings up undeniable proof of magic being the more powerful system, you claim it's not valid because it's cheese, or an exploit, or an exception to the rule.
It seems like the only points which are valid, are your opinions. Any concrete facts, or opinions of others, are invalid because they aren't stated by you.
That said, if you go outside core, or look at Pathfinder... you'll see things like wizards throwing 12d6+2 fireballs (that deal whatever energy type is desirable at the moment) at 5th level, which a psion can never hope to match.
Alright, that is significant. How does he manage that?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In Pathfinder, you can manage it with the traits Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter (or the OGC version Metamagic Master). They're two different trait categories, allowing you to legally take both.
Then, you need the feats Spell Focus, Varisian Tattoo (OGC Mage's Tattoo), Spell Specialization (fireball), and Empower Spell (3 feats from 5th level, plus 5th level Wizard bonus feat).
Altogether, this increases the caster level of your fireball by 3, and lets you apply 2 levels of metamagic to it for free, such as Empowered. This gives you a fireball that deals 8d6+50% (or, 12d6 for ease of communication).
Evocation specialists add half their level rounded down to the damage output of their spells. For a 5th level Evocation specialist, this means +2. The Admixture subschool replaces the Force Missile ability with Versatile Evocation, allowing you to change the damage type of a spell as you cast it from acid, cold, electricity, or fire to another of those damage types 3 + Int times per day (at this level, more than the number of fireballs you could have).
Bear in mind this requires Pathfinder outside of core. If you're just comparing Pathfinder core to 3.x core, you'll pretty much just see Spell Focus, and some advantageous empowering at a few spell levels, Intensify Spell, plus metamagic rods. Moderately better than 3.x core, but not a lot. With only 3.x core wizard and XPH psion the psion will generally be a more efficient blaster, though not by enough to make it a really important objective (see my previous post on the subject for more details).