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The way I read it - Slashing Grace should work with thrown weapons as long as they're slashing, one-handed, and has a range increment.
Admittedly - I could only find one case of such a weapon - the rather medicore sibat.
Nonetheless - am I reading it right? With slashing grace could you get dex to damage with a thrown sibat?
Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another
slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Now, lets edit it just to make it a little more clear
Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another
slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
So no, I don't think so, because when you are throwing it you are not wielding it one-handed.
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Yes but (not disagreeing per se - just playing devil's advocate) by that logic TWF wouldn't work with thrown weapons either considering the wording
Two-Weapon FightingIf you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Yet - people know that they can use TWF with thrown weaponry - though by your logic they shouldn't be able to.
You can TWF with thrown weapons if you have quick draw because you can draw another weapon as a free action and still have a second weapon (in your off hand).
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You can TWF with thrown weapons if you have quick draw because you can draw another weapon as a free action and still have a second weapon (in your off hand).
You can TWF without quickdraw - you'll just end up unarmed. And going by your logic - wouldn't the same apply to slashing grace?
I'm not saying you aren't correct RAI, but I don't see it RAW.
You can TWF with thrown weapons if you have quick draw because you can draw another weapon as a free action and still have a second weapon (in your off hand).You can TWF without quickdraw - you'll just end up unarmed. And going by your logic - wouldn't the same apply to slashing grace?
I'm not saying you aren't correct RAI, but I don't see it RAW.
Actually, RAW seems quite clear on the issue as it says while wielding the weapon one-handed. Rules as intended is questionable, but I find no compelling reason within the text of the feat to indicate that it should work with thrown weapons.
And no, my logic for why TWF works with quick draw and iterative attacks provided by ITWF and GTWF is that despite the literal "with that weapon" most people accept that if you can replace the now thrown weapon in your off-hand with another that being overly literally and not allowing more attacks with that hand seems overly restrictive. However, as I said earlier, there is no compelling evidence to suggest that slashing grace was intended to work with thrown weapons and by the rules as written doesn't appear to since it appears to require wielding weapons one handed.
Slashing Grace (Combat)
You can stab your enemies with your sword or another
slashing weapon.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus
with chosen weapon.
Benefit: Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
In addition to the other points I have yet to see a precedent for treating a thrown weapon as melee, so I'm gonna say melee only for this one.
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You can TWF with thrown weapons if you have quick draw because you can draw another weapon as a free action and still have a second weapon (in your off hand).You can TWF without quickdraw - you'll just end up unarmed. And going by your logic - wouldn't the same apply to slashing grace?
I'm not saying you aren't correct RAI, but I don't see it RAW.
Actually, RAW seems quite clear on the issue as it says while wielding the weapon one-handed. Rules as intended is questionable, but I find no compelling reason within the text of the feat to indicate that it should work with thrown weapons.
And no, my logic for why TWF works with quick draw and iterative attacks provided by ITWF and GTWF is that despite the literal "with that weapon" most people accept that if you can replace the now thrown weapon in your off-hand with another that being overly literally and not allowing more attacks with that hand seems overly restrictive. However, as I said earlier, there is no compelling evidence to suggest that slashing grace was intended to work with thrown weapons and by the rules as written doesn't appear to since it appears to require wielding weapons one handed.
It's RAW if you're correct in that you no longer count as 'wielding' the instant a weapon leaves your hand. Considering the usage of 'wield' in other parts of the rules - I'm iffy on it.
@dragonhunterq - That part of the rules has nothing to do with adding dex to damage. Slashing Grace gives you 2 seperate things
1. When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler’s or a duelist’s precise strike).
2. You can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon’s damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Melee is mentioned in the first, but not the 2nd. The 2nd part is what's under discussion here.
I would suggest that they are in fact linked abilities. they are not entirely separate. The 'and' doesn't disassociate it.
If they were intended as two entirely separate abilities they would be in distinct sentences.
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I would suggest that they are in fact linked abilities. they are not entirely separate. The 'and' doesn't disassociate it.
If they were intended as two entirely separate abilities they would be in distinct sentences.
How about the 'can' then? That means that you don't have to treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon.
Besides - a sibat is a melee weapon anyway. It's just also throwable.
Again - I'm not saying Slashing Grace DOES work for throwing - I just need to be convinced that it DOESN'T.
So far - I'm undecided. (and I like to play devil's advocate)
Not sure as to the relevance of your comment about 'can', because if you 'couldn't' the feat wouldn't do anything. You need the 'can' to say that you (for want of a better word) can...
A melee weapon, when thrown, is treated in all ways as a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon for the purposes of feats etc. for example you can use point blank shot with a thrown dagger, but you couldn't use a thrown dagger with, say, spring attack.
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Not sure as to the relevance of your comment about 'can', because if you 'couldn't' the feat wouldn't do anything. You need the 'can' to say that you (for want of a better word) can...
A melee weapon, when thrown, is treated in all ways as a ranged weapon, not a melee weapon for the purposes of feats etc. for example you can use point blank shot with a thrown dagger, but you couldn't use a thrown dagger with, say, spring attack.
'Can' matters because it could have said "you treat it as..." but it instead says "you CAN treat it as...".
That means that you don't have to do so.
It's RAW if you're correct in that you no longer count as 'wielding' the instant a weapon leaves your hand. Considering the usage of 'wield' in other parts of the rules - I'm iffy on it.
Problem is that the definition of wielding isn't well defined within the game. It's been used in a lot of different contexts in many different places and unfortunately has been left to "use common sense" which has the problem that many different people have many different interpretations.
That being said, the moment it leaves you hand is not the issue. If you are wielding a weapon to throw it, you are not using it the same way you wield it for one-handed melee combat. So basically, if you intend to throw it for that attack it is no longer a one-handed melee weapon, but a thrown weapon.
Generally I have conservative interpretations of everything unless good evidence can be found for the alternative. This is simply one example where in my understanding of the feat's text and general games rules along with my conservative approach to things says "no, this doesn't work".
Maybe it's not that clear par RAW but I can assure you that per RAI it's NOT intended to work with thrown weapon... It doesn't work with light weapon and since everyone has asked why 1-handed slashing weapon can do what 1 handed Piercing weapon can't the errata was a new feat mad especially for the Rapier... If you allow this feat for Slashing thrown weapon it will be the same again : why slashing thrwon weapon can do what Piercing thrown weapon (which are flavorwise more suitable for the job) can't ? ;)
So sorry but if it's cleared by a dev it will be : you can't...
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I think it is RAI that slashing grace was intended for melee only. RAW however it might be possible to pull off.
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That being said, the moment it leaves you hand is not the issue. If you are wielding a weapon to throw it, you are not using it the same way you wield it for one-handed melee combat. So basically, if you intend to throw it for that attack it is no longer a one-handed melee weapon, but a thrown weapon.
Except that the text for Slashing Grace never says it can only apply to melee weapons. It says "one-handed slashing weapon". I'm guessing that the 'one-handed' is to prevent you from applying it to a light weapon so that you can't TWF with ease and get dex damage from both weapons. So far as I know, the only way to do that is with saw-toothed sabres which requires proficiency with them (either burn a feat or be tengu) & a 1 level dip into swashbuckler.
In any case - it never says only for melee. (hence this issue) The only time the feat mentions melee is the aforementioned point when it says that "you CAN treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon". You don't have to, and it's only for getting extra bonuses for class abilities & feats.
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Maybe it's not that clear par RAW but I can assure you that per RAI it's NOT intended to work with thrown weapon... It doesn't work with light weapon and since everyone has asked why 1-handed slashing weapon can do what 1 handed Piercing weapon can't the errata was a new feat mad especially for the Rapier... If you allow this feat for Slashing thrown weapon it will be the same again : why slashing thrwon weapon can do what Piercing thrown weapon (which are flavorwise more suitable for the job) can't ? ;)
So sorry but if it's cleared by a dev it will be : you can't...
I totally agree with you on RAI. Frankly - I started this thread more as a thought experiment than with any real intention of using it. As I said - there's only the 1 mediocre weapon, and throwing builds are already very feat intensive. (6 feats to have both melee & throwing options down - which if you can't melee you might as well use a bow as the versatility is only real reason to go throwing)