NPCs who take Bad Fights

[Cranefist]

The primary thing in adventure gaming that I've always thought was kind of stupid is when NPCs take fights they can't win, or stay in fights when that becomes clear.

Lets say you are 4 goblins and 4 guys armed to the teeth come walking through the woods. There isn't a deer in half a mile because of the noise of their walking in the woods. For some reason though, these goblins will take the fight.

Then you got the CR 5, INT 13, teleporting demon who will take on the paladin and wizard for no reason other than they are there.

How about the 10th level wizard who even fights a PC group instead of just vanishing through a portal - what's he thinking?

Modules and PFS is so funny because you always have this parade of suicidal NPCs that will happily rush into a losing battle and stay to the bitter end.

Your rogues and rangers constantly scouting ahead are way more important in a game where NPCs won't take fights unless they think they can win. If you give the vast majority of the villains in your world a healthy dose of self preservation, the party will only get an easy fight if they are somehow able to initiate it by surprise. In almost all other cases, NPCs flee unless they think they can win. Often they will flee fights they can win if they don't know who is attacking them and are caught by surprise.

[FanaticRat]

I think it's probably just for simplicity, but I feel you. I can't count how many pfs games where enemies fight to the death, even when they're clearly losing and we've given them opportunity to either flee or surrender. Just them trying to regroup elsewhere would probably make for tougher fights.

[Pan]

Well I certainly dont run my home game encounters like that. Though home games are afforded that luxury. I dont expect PFS to be hardcore mode in fact I expect it to be a bit easy because week to week you never know what your party makeup will be. Also, the adventure has to be slotted for 4 hours. YMMV.

[Pupsocket]

Speaking of modules and suicidal tactics...I've noticed a lot of tactics notes on NPC caster-types that say "If forced into melee, cast buff X, then cast buff Y, then do Z". And it's ridiculous. It's beyond ridiculous, in a product I'm paying money for, it's offensively stupid. If a caster-type is forced into melee by player characters, he has one, maybe two actions to drastically change the situation, and after that he is dead.

[Eltacolibre]

Goblins are probably the worst example tho...Goblins have no sense of self preservation, as demonstrated clearly in rise of the runelords, where Goblins would literally jump from rooftops and crack their necks. A goblin with 5 heroic levels is exceptional, as most never lives that long.

It depends some creatures fight to death, other negotiate etc...it varies a lot, depending of circumstances.

[Imbicatus]

In a scenario I was playing this Sunday, we had defeated and knocked out a summoner. We wanted to question her as she was extorting an NPC and we wanted to liberate the cure to the disease she was holding hostage.

We tired her up, gagged her, and wasted healing to bring her back to consciousness. So after we killer her eidolon, her summoned earth elemental, and ko'd her, as soon as she wakes up she proceeds to use her SLA to summon yet another earth elemental.

We then killed her, because she was clearly too stupid to live.

[Kimera757]

Cranefist wrote:

The primary thing in adventure gaming that I've always thought was kind of stupid is when NPCs take fights they can't win, or stay in fights when that becomes clear.

Lets say you are 4 goblins and 4 guys armed to the teeth come walking through the woods. There isn't a deer in half a mile because of the noise of their walking in the woods. For some reason though, these goblins will take the fight.

That's pretty bad... unless it's a party of goblin adventurers, that is.

Quote:

How about the 10th level wizard who even fights a PC group instead of just vanishing through a portal - what's he thinking?

That's dumb. I recall doing something similar in a 3.5 game I ran a long time ago (2007, I think). The NPCs included sorcerers, and once they ran out of 3rd to 5th level spells ran away. A furious player demanded to see their character sheets and insisted they still had a bunch of Magic Missiles they could have used. (True, but sticking around to do a little force damage while getting killed by the PCs was not a smart move, so they fled.)

I took part in a thread a few years back about non-suicidal, non-combat mages. Someone insisted that killing these non-combat mages was easy. I said that any non-combat mage would still prepare defensive spells (in case they get mugged, which even non-paranoid mages should fear) and unless you grapple and gag them quickly can still Dimension Door (if they've got enough levels). The wizard isn't going to waste time throwing that Lightning Bolt spell they haven't thrown in a year in order to "protect their dignity". I'm having a hard time picturing a wizard never using the False Life spell, on a daily basis. You don't need it every day, but it has no material component cost, so cast it every day. It's like carrying a potion, only better.

Modules and PFS is so funny because you always have this parade of suicidal NPCs that will happily rush into a losing battle and stay to the bitter end.

Quote:

Your rogues and rangers constantly scouting ahead are way more important in a game where NPCs won't take fights unless they think they can win. If you give the vast majority of the villains in your world a healthy dose of self preservation, the party will only get an easy fight if they are somehow able to initiate it by surprise. In almost all other cases, NPCs flee unless they think they can win. Often they will flee fights they can win if they don't know who is attacking them and are caught by surprise.

Adventures shouldn't use "trash" fights. A quick scripted "the large number of goblins attack, but after a couple of seconds realize they're outmatched and flee" does not actually need to be run at the table. That's just wasting time.

[the secret fire]

Kimera757 wrote:

Adventures shouldn't use "trash" fights. A quick scripted "the large number of goblins attack, but after a couple of seconds realize they're outmatched and flee" does not actually need to be run at the table. That's just wasting time.

Such fights can have a place in the game if they lead somewhere...like allowing the party to track the fleeing band to someplace important, or allowing the party to interrogate wounded survivors, etc. Occasionally putting the PCs in fights that are just slaughters can also bring up ethical issues which may lead to interesting roleplaying opportunities. There is a time and place for almost everything.

[wraithstrike]

I think that sometimes bad guys dont know how close they are to death.

Some think they have nothing to lose

Some may think they can pull it out or just wont accept defeat.

Sometimes however it is just plain stupidity, but I guess the above sentence could qualify also.

Sometimes I do have them surrender or run. It depends on the situation.

[Tryn]

I see the "tactics" part in a module always as guidelines and if they make no sense, I change it.
Often enemies don't surrender because of the story-line or smooth game. If you were ever deep into enemy territory/wilderness and a group of bandits surrender to you and you then have to handle them good (because some of you are X-Good), you will know what troubles this brings with it...

[Ascalaphus]

I think it's always good to consider the NPCs' motivations to fight, because that allows you to come up with more varied ways to end an encounter than "all the NPCs are dead".

This is one of the reasons that fights with animals should often be easier than straight CR suggests; animals tend to have simple motivations to fight and if you back away from their lair/young, give them some food that's easier than fighting you, or threaten them with things all animals fear (big fires), then they should be willing to end the combat.

That said, the game doesn't become more fun if all the fights are against superior enemies. And there are enough reasons why weaker NPCs might fight the PCs, including but not limited to:

Overconfident

Misinformed about the power level of the PCs

Religious fanatics and/or seeking martyrdom

Maybe the PCs are actually good enough at closing in quietly. Perception penalties for distance can make this happen.

Covering the retreat of other NPCs

They have no escape route

Mindless

More scared of the BBEG than of the players

Unable to outrun the PCs

Convinced the PCs won't show mercy, so might as well fight to the death

Dominated

Defending its young

Starving

Literally created from pure unadulterated nihilistic hatred for all that lives and breathes

Too stupid to live

[Diego Rossi]

Why TPK happen in a game that is rigged in favor of the players?
Because they often don't know when to retract, because they think that one more good blow will win the fight, because they feel that retreating will demean them, because retreating will mean utter failure or simply because they don't think they can lose.

Some NPC operate the same way. Others will flee as son as they aren't sure to win with ease.

Generally the important NPC have detailed information in the AP about their character and motivations, minions have less information but "XX fight to the death" without any indication of why he act that way is reasonably rare.

Edit: Ascalaphus did a very good post.