Thunder and Fang Slayer

[Thunderforge]

With the release of the Advanced Class Guide, has anyone done a Thunder and Fang Slayer build? As a human you can still get T&F by level 3 and with the addition of precision damage I would think it would be a nice boon to the damage potential of a T&F build.

[Seranov]

Might be cool. Personally, I like the straight Ranger better for T&F because you get more bonus combat style feats and spells (mmm lead blades and instant enemy!) but a Slayer could totally pull it off well.

[Ascalaphus]

I've been wrestling with a build like this for days now, I just can't get it to work the way I like it. I'm starting to think that it's actually better in the hands of a ranger than a slayer, because what slayer-specific abilities are you really going to use on it?

Also, how are you getting T&F by level 3? Are you sacrificing the l2 ability to get Shield Slam? Because that, for me, is the main reason to want to play this, either as ranger or slayer.

[Michael Sayre]

Ascalaphus wrote:

I've been wrestling with a build like this for days now, I just can't get it to work the way I like it. I'm starting to think that it's actually better in the hands of a ranger than a slayer, because what slayer-specific abilities are you really going to use on it?

Also, how are you getting T&F by level 3? Are you sacrificing the l2 ability to get Shield Slam? Because that, for me, is the main reason to want to play this, either as ranger or slayer.

You grab weapon focus and TWF as your level 1 feats, use your talent to grab the second weapon focus, and at 3 you hve T&F. You don't need Shield Slam first because it isn't a prereq and the klar is a weapon in its own right, so you're swinging with your one-handed earthbreaker and light klar. The only class that can do it faster is the Fighter.

It's easy, you can do it, and I don't know that I'd invest anything more in it than you do to get the feat, and of course your subsequent TWF feats. Once you've met the prereqs you'd treat it like any other asymmetric TWF build.

[Ascalaphus]

Ah, me I was going to take Shield Bash at level 2, then Shield Mastery at level 6. Doing it with a klar and earth breaker was more of a coincidence; it's actually a S&B build focused on bashing people prone. The point of ranger/slayer is to get access to those feats faster than normnal (level 2 instead of BAB 6, level 6 instead of BAB 11), so that you actually get to spend most levels in PFS having fun with them.

1: 2WF, WF (klar)
2: Shield Slam
3: WF (earth breaker)
5: T&F
6: Shield Mastery

[Michael Sayre]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Ah, me I was going to take Shield Bash at level 2, then Shield Mastery at level 6. Doing it with a klar and earth breaker was more of a coincidence; it's actually a S&B build focused on bashing people prone. The point of ranger/slayer is to get access to those feats faster than normnal (level 2 instead of BAB 6, level 6 instead of BAB 11), so that you actually get to spend most levels in PFS having fun with them.

1: 2WF, WF (klar)
2: Shield Slam
3: WF (earth breaker)
5: T&F
6: Shield Mastery

I prefer getting T&F as fast as possible just so I can actually wield the two weapons together as fast as possible. Once I'm swinging my big-ass hammer and stabbing people with my spiky shield while keeping my AC bonus, I'll start getting tricky :)

[Argus The Slayer]

That build would work, but you are going to be stretched thin and MAD with STR/DEX/CON requirements, in addition to WIS for your Ranger - which will lead to you have a a rather Meh attack bonus. I still think straight Fighter works best for Thunder and Fang.

Human Thunder and Fang Fighter
S18 D17 C14 I10 W12 C7 (with human variant +2 to two stats (STR/DEX) - all bumps to STR
1) Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker; Weapon Focus: Klar
2) TWF
3) Thunder and Fang; Medium Armor Training
4) WS: Earth Breaker
5) WS: Klar; WT: Hammers: +1/+1
6) Improved TWF
7) Power Attack; Heavy Armor Training
8) Greater Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker
9) Double Slice; WT: Hammers: +2/+2, Close: +1/+1
10) Greater Weapon Focus: Klar
11) Improved Critical: Earth Breaker
12) Greater Weapon Specialization: Earth Breaker
13) Greater Weapon Specialization: Klar; WT: +3/+2

Attack @ 9th w/ Gloves of Dueling, a +2 DEX/STR Belt and +1 Earth Breaker and Klar:

+9BAB+6STR+1Magic+1WF+4WT-2TWF= +19/+18/+14/+13

Damage:
Earthbreaker: +6STR+4WT+2Magic+2WS= 2d6+13 (or +19 w/PA)
Klar: +6STR+3WT+1Magic+2WS= 1d4+11 (or +17 w/ PA)

[Captain Netz]

Argus The Slayer wrote:

That build would work, but you are going to be stretched thin and MAD with STR/DEX/CON requirements, in addition to WIS for your Ranger - which will lead to you have a a rather Meh attack bonus. I still think straight Fighter works best for Thunder and Fang.

Human Thunder and Fang Fighter
S18 D17 C14 I10 W12 C7 (with human variant +2 to two stats (STR/DEX) - all bumps to STR
1) Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker; Weapon Focus: Klar
2) TWF
3) Thunder and Fang; Medium Armor Training
4) WS: Earth Breaker
5) WS: Klar; WT: Hammers: +1/+1
6) Improved TWF
7) Power Attack; Heavy Armor Training
8) Greater Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker
9) Double Slice; WT: Hammers: +2/+2, Close: +1/+1
10) Greater Weapon Focus: Klar
11) Improved Critical: Earth Breaker
12) Greater Weapon Specialization: Earth Breaker
13) Greater Weapon Specialization: Klar; WT: +3/+2

Attack @ 9th w/ Gloves of Dueling, a +2 DEX/STR Belt and +1 Earth Breaker and Klar:

+9BAB+6STR+1Magic+1WF+4WT-2TWF= +19/+18/+14/+13

Damage:
Earthbreaker: +6STR+4WT+2Magic+2WS= 2d6+13 (or +19 w/PA)
Klar: +6STR+3WT+1Magic+2WS= 1d4+11 (or +17 w/ PA)

I would believe you if you would have claimed feats were too few and far between.

But I fail to see how a Ranger would be mad, considering he doesn't need to be a dual talented human or a high DEX score at all to pull it off.

[Seranov]

And now I'm kind of tempted to make a Slayer 2/Magus X that uses Thunder and Fang to 1h an Earthbreaker for Spellstrike nonsense.

[Physically Unfeasible]

Ssalarn wrote:

You grab weapon focus and TWF as your level 1 feats, use your talent to grab the second weapon focus, and at 3 you hve T&F. You don't need Shield Slam first because it isn't a prereq and the klar is a weapon in its own right, so you're swinging with your one-handed earthbreaker and light klar. The only class that can do it faster is the Fighter.

It's easy, you can do it, and I don't know that I'd invest anything more in it than you do to get the feat, and of course your subsequent TWF feats. Once you've met the prereqs you'd treat it like any other asymmetric TWF build.

But...Slayers get combat styles. Why would you do it like that? Madness! :P

Quote:

I'm starting to think that it's actually better in the hands of a ranger than a slayer, because what slayer-specific abilities are you really going to use on it?

If retraining is a thing in your game - a free weapon focus from a talent and a bonus combat feat without it do make things a bit smoother.

Quote:

And now I'm kind of tempted to make a Slayer 2/Magus X that uses Thunder and Fang to 1h an Earthbreaker for Spellstrike nonsense.

A check your GM there (assuming you meant spell combat - handedness is irrelevant for spellstrike) since the text is while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. Even if you're using it as a one-handed weapon.

I'd let it fly (but two level dip for bigger damage die is hardly world-breaking) but I can see why others would not.

[Michael Sayre]

Physically Unfeasible wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

You grab weapon focus and TWF as your level 1 feats, use your talent to grab the second weapon focus, and at 3 you hve T&F. You don't need Shield Slam first because it isn't a prereq and the klar is a weapon in its own right, so you're swinging with your one-handed earthbreaker and light klar. The only class that can do it faster is the Fighter.

It's easy, you can do it, and I don't know that I'd invest anything more in it than you do to get the feat, and of course your subsequent TWF feats. Once you've met the prereqs you'd treat it like any other asymmetric TWF build.

But...Slayers get combat styles. Why would you do it like that? Madness! :P

I'll admit, there's a couple ways to skin that cat, I just like the spreads that get me doing the things I want to do (TWF, Archery, whatever) as quickly as possible. If I'm going to TWF I generally want to be TWFing right from 1st level.

Physically Unfeasible wrote:

Quote:

And now I'm kind of tempted to make a Slayer 2/Magus X that uses Thunder and Fang to 1h an Earthbreaker for Spellstrike nonsense.

A check your GM there (assuming you meant spell combat - handedness is irrelevant for spellstrike) since the text is while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. Even if you're using it as a one-handed weapon.

I'd let it fly (but two level dip for bigger damage die is hardly world-breaking) but I can see why others would not.

The RAW on that one and the supporting FAQs are retty clear that Spellstriking / Spell Combat with an earthbreaker is kosher as long as you have the T&F feat. The real question is why you'd want to burn 4 feats when you'll only ever be using 1.5 of them for a relatively piddly damage boost. You could grab EWP bastard sword for one feat and you'd only be down about 1.5 average damage, plus the real important thing for a magus is crit threat range, not crit multiplier, so you'd win out in pretty much every way.

Though the earthbreaker would be pretty damn cool from a thematic perspective.

[Seranov]

It's less for mechanical reasons and more because I think it would be hilarious and look awesome. I am fully aware it would not be a good plan, usually.

[Thunderforge]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Also, how are you getting T&F by level 3? Are you sacrificing the l2 ability to get Shield Slam? Because that, for me, is the main reason to want to play this, either as ranger or slayer.

I wasn't as concerned with the Shield Bash route so I was doing it with:

1: WF:Earth Breaker, WF: Klar
2: Slayer Talent: Ranger Combat Style - TWF
3: Thunder & Fang

[Argus The Slayer]

Captain Netz wrote:

Argus The Slayer wrote:

That build would work, but you are going to be stretched thin and MAD with STR/DEX/CON requirements, in addition to WIS for your Ranger - which will lead to you have a a rather Meh attack bonus. I still think straight Fighter works best for Thunder and Fang.

Human Thunder and Fang Fighter
S18 D17 C14 I10 W12 C7 (with human variant +2 to two stats (STR/DEX) - all bumps to STR
1) Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker; Weapon Focus: Klar
2) TWF
3) Thunder and Fang; Medium Armor Training
4) WS: Earth Breaker
5) WS: Klar; WT: Hammers: +1/+1
6) Improved TWF
7) Power Attack; Heavy Armor Training
8) Greater Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker
9) Double Slice; WT: Hammers: +2/+2, Close: +1/+1
10) Greater Weapon Focus: Klar
11) Improved Critical: Earth Breaker
12) Greater Weapon Specialization: Earth Breaker
13) Greater Weapon Specialization: Klar; WT: +3/+2

Attack @ 9th w/ Gloves of Dueling, a +2 DEX/STR Belt and +1 Earth Breaker and Klar:

+9BAB+6STR+1Magic+1WF+4WT-2TWF= +19/+18/+14/+13

Damage:
Earthbreaker: +6STR+4WT+2Magic+2WS= 2d6+13 (or +19 w/PA)
Klar: +6STR+3WT+1Magic+2WS= 1d4+11 (or +17 w/ PA)

I would believe you if you would have claimed feats were too few and far between.

But I fail to see how a Ranger would be mad, considering he doesn't need to be a dual talented human or a high DEX score at all to pull it off.

Sorry I wasn't clear: a fighter's Weapon Training and other static bonuses to hit and damage (Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, etc) make the fighter superior in any fight where the Ranger isn't fighting his favored enemy. And fighter's can do that all day long.

[Argus The Slayer]

It takes longer to get into Thunder and Fang, but a Savage Technologist Barbarian makes a pretty fine Thunder and Fang build, too (completely ignoring the Technologist "guns" abilities) - and keeping your AC pretty spiffy while you are kicking ass.

Human Savage Technologist Barbarian: Thunder and Fang
S:18 D:15 C:14 I:10 W:12 C:7 (all bumps to STR)
1) Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker; Weapon Focus: Klar
2) RP: Beast Totem - Lesser
3) TWF
4) Reckless Abandon
5) Thunder and Fang
6) RP: Beast Totem
7) Improved TWF
8) Rage Power?
9) Double Slice
10) Greater Beast Totem (Pounce!)
11) Two Weapon Rend
12) Rage Power?

Raging Attack @ 9th w/ +2/+2 STR/DEX belt, +1 Furious Earth Breaker and +1 Furious Klar:

+9(BAB)+8(STR)+3(Magic)+1WF+3RA--2TWF = +22/+22/+17/+17 for 2d6+11 and 1d6+11 (+8STR+3Magic)

[Thunderforge]

Argus The Slayer wrote:

That build would work, but you are going to be stretched thin and MAD with STR/DEX/CON requirements, in addition to WIS for your Ranger - which will lead to you have a a rather Meh attack bonus. I still think straight Fighter works best for Thunder and Fang.

Human Thunder and Fang Fighter
S18 D17 C14 I10 W12 C7 (with human variant +2 to two stats (STR/DEX) - all bumps to STR
1) Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker; Weapon Focus: Klar
2) TWF
3) Thunder and Fang; Medium Armor Training
4) WS: Earth Breaker
5) WS: Klar; WT: Hammers: +1/+1
6) Improved TWF
7) Power Attack; Heavy Armor Training
8) Greater Weapon Focus: Earth Breaker
9) Double Slice; WT: Hammers: +2/+2, Close: +1/+1
10) Greater Weapon Focus: Klar
11) Improved Critical: Earth Breaker
12) Greater Weapon Specialization: Earth Breaker
13) Greater Weapon Specialization: Klar; WT: +3/+2

Attack @ 9th w/ Gloves of Dueling, a +2 DEX/STR Belt and +1 Earth Breaker and Klar:

+9BAB+6STR+1Magic+1WF+4WT-2TWF= +19/+18/+14/+13

Damage:
Earthbreaker: +6STR+4WT+2Magic+2WS= 2d6+13 (or +19 w/PA)
Klar: +6STR+3WT+1Magic+2WS= 1d4+11 (or +17 w/ PA)

I see you selected the Close weapons group at level 9. The Paizo PRD doesn't list the Klar in any weapon group and d20pfsrd lists it in the Heavy Blades weapon group. Is there an official Paizo document that states what group the Klar falls into?

[Ventnor]

Seranov wrote:

And now I'm kind of tempted to make a Slayer 2/Magus X that uses Thunder and Fang to 1h an Earthbreaker for Spellstrike nonsense.

Maybe you could go Thunder & Fang Skirnir Magus?

[Physically Unfeasible]

Ssalarn wrote:

I'll admit, there's a couple ways to skin that cat, I just like the spreads that get me doing the things I want to do (TWF, Archery, whatever) as quickly as possible. If I'm going to TWF I generally want to be TWFing right from 1st level.

That's fair. My personal preference is towait when playing a strength build but I see the attraction.

Ssalarn wrote:

The RAW on that one and the supporting FAQs are retty clear that Spellstriking / Spell Combat with an earthbreaker is kosher as long as you have the T&F feat. The real question is why you'd want to burn 4 feats when you'll only ever be using 1.5 of them for a relatively piddly damage boost. You could grab EWP bastard sword for one feat and you'd only be down about 1.5 average damage, plus the real important thing for a magus is crit threat range, not crit multiplier, so you'd win out in pretty much every way.

Those FAQs had gone right by me. That's pretty good news. Though with RAW; you shouldn't place an expectation on how conservatively people can read.

Shouldn't place one on liberal readings either, I guess.

We all know the hammer Magus would be awesome, however.

Anyway - I was never on topic: I have played one, the build worked very nicely. What's really worth noting is that the Slayer can fill some of a skill monkey role. So combat prowess (which you'll have in spades) regardless, it's still a contributor.
If you're going high enough to pull it into the build: shatter defences? A bonus on intimidate makes it function quite well.

[Argus The Slayer]

Thunderforge wrote:

I see you selected the Close weapons group at level 9. The Paizo PRD doesn't list the Klar in any weapon group and d20pfsrd lists it in the Heavy Blades weapon group. Is there an official Paizo document that states what group the Klar falls into?

It doesn't look like there is any official weapon group designation for the Klar. The Close Weapons group makes sense to me, so that's where I put it.

[Ascalaphus]

A klar is treated as a spiked light shield, so maybe it should use that weapon group? That's Close, right?

[Kazaan]

How about this:

Human Slayer:
1) TWF, WF: Earthbreaker
2) Talent: Weapon Training: Klar
3) T&F
4) Talent: Ranger TWF Style: Double Slice
5) Improved Shield Bash
6) Talent: Ranger TWF Style: ITWF
7) Shield Slam
8) Talent: (your choice)
9) (your choice)
10) Talent: Ranger TWF style: Two-Weapon Rend
11) Shield Mastery

Thunder and Fang is completely online at lvl 3. You only need 15 Dex to qualify for TWF since you use talents to access Ranger Styles. Lvl 6 gets you an extra off-hand attack and the third from GTWF is really unnecessary. You get an open talent slot at lvl 8 to customize however you want as well as an open feat slot at lvl 9. Two-Weapon Rend and Shield Mastery at the end are really just gravy. ISB becomes pure feat tax, mind you, only to access Shield Slam and Shield Mastery. Alternatively, you could go for Weapon+Shield style and drop ITWF and Rend in favor of Slam(lvl 4), Mastery(lvl 6), and either Bashing Finish or GSF at lvl 10. This saves you from needing to take ISB so your progression would be as follows:

1) TWF, WF: Earthbreaker
2) Talent: Weapon Training: Klar
3) T&F
4) Talent: Ranger Shield Style: Shield Slam
5) Double Slice
6) Talent: Ranger Shield Style: Shield Master
7) ITWF
8) Talent: (your choice)
9) (your choice)
10) Talent: Ranger Shield Style: [Bashing Finish or GSF]
11) TWR

This requires an investment of 17 Dex to get the TWF feats, but you can skip ISB using Ranger Styles since T&F covers that benefit already.

[Ascalaphus]

@Kazaan: I like that second progression. Good outside the box thinking; you can't switch the order like that with a ranger. I hadn't realized how useful Weapon Training would be as a talent.

Personally I really really like Shield Slam, because just about every other dungeon has at least one battlefield that makes me go "if only I had Improved Bull Rush, I could do something funny here..."

And Shield Master is really good, because armor enhancements are much cheaper than weapon enhancements. And getting both armor and weapon enhancement from the same source is hilariously good, but only if you get early access. In PFS Shield Master is normally hopeless because level 11 is way too late.

I'm not so sure about Bashing Finish. The crit range on an earth breaker doesn't really justify it I think. Luckily, as a Slayer, you can just opt out of the fighting style if you've already sucked all the good stuff out of it.

I think the cute part about the build around Shield Slam and Shield Master is that while technically the klar is the off-hand weapon, it is actually the most important weapon you're using.

[Argus The Slayer]

Bashing Finish would apply to crits with either the Earth Break OR the Klar - which makes it a nice feat for stacking extra damage, especially if you can go with Improved Crit for the EarthBreaker and Keen for your Klar.

I'm liking the Slayer build for Thunder and Fang. A human Slayer gets to T&F at level 3 (which is pretty damn fast!), and can get Shield master by Level 6. It might be worth looking at other classes for options after level 6 (or 7 if you want to be able to perform your Studied Target ability as a swift action).

[Ascalaphus]

Hey, question. When you enchant a shield separately for offence and defence.

So you have a +3 klar (shield), can you also add a +1 keen (weapon) to that and get full effect? Because I just realized the klar is a slashing weapon..

[Argus The Slayer]

Here's a first stab at a Thunder and Fang Slayer/Savage Technologist:

Human Thunder and Fang Slayer/Savage Technologist
S:18 D:15 C:14 I:10 W:12 C:7 - 1st two bumps to STR, then DEX

1) S1 - TWF, WF: Earth Breaker; Studied Target: +1
2) S2 - Talent: Weapon Training: Klar
3) S3 - Thunder and Fang; Sneak: 1d6
4) S4 - Slayer Talent: Trap Finding
5) S5 - Double Slice; Studied Target: +2
6) S6 - Talent: Ranger Shield Style: Shield Master; Sneak: 2d6
7) S7 - ITWF; Stalker & Swift Studied Target
8) B1 - Rage (6 rounds/day); Fast Movement
9) B2 - Reckless Abandon; Iron Will (8 rounds/day)
10) B3 - (10 rounds/day)
11) B4 - Two Weapon Rend; Rage Power? (12 rounds/day)

Attack @ 9th Raging w/ +2/+2 STR/DEX belt, +2 Earth Breaker and +2 Keen Klar:

+9(BAB)+8(STR)+2(Magic)+1WF+2ST+1RA-2TWF = +21/+23/+16/+18 for 2d6+12 (+8STR+2Magic+2ST) and 1d6+12

[Kazaan]

Weapon enhances are separate from Defense enhancements and Shield Master allows you to use your Defense enhancements for offense.

So, normally, you'd have a Klar that attacks as a +1 Keen weapon. But with Shield Master, you'd use the +3 defensive enhancement instead of the +1 offensive enhancement. It's still unclear if the Keen is "married" to the +1 in such a way that you have to choose between +3 or +1 Keen or if you can "overlap" them in that you have +3, +1, and Keen; the +3 overrides the +1 but the Keen is still there. There are a few debates on that subject floating around and, to my knowledge, we haven't come to a definite conclusion nor gotten any feedback from the devs.

PS: @Argus, Read the Ranger Style talent more carefully.

d20 wrote:

Ranger Combat Style (Ex): The slayer selects a ranger combat style (such as archery or two-weapon combat) and gains a combat feat from the first feat list of that style. He can choose feats from his selected combat style, even if he does not have the normal prerequisites. At 6th level, he may select this talent again and add the 6th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list. At 10th level, he may select this talent again and add the 10th-level ranger combat feats from his chosen style to the list.

You don't get to add the lvl 6 feats until you've picked the Ranger Combat Style talent again, meaning you must have picked it a first time. So you can't skip straight to a lvl 6 Ranger Combat feat, you must take it once for one of the base feats first.

[Ascalaphus]

@Kazaan: in that case I think I'll stay away from the Keen, just to avoid the argument. There are enough other good enchantments available in any case.

[Argus The Slayer]

Bleh - I didn't see that. Subbing the TWF pick at 2nd is an easy enough change:

1) S1 - WF: Klar, WF: Earth Breaker; Studied Target: +1
2) S2 - Talent: Ranger Weapon and Shield Style: TWF
3) S3 - Thunder and Fang; Sneak: 1d6
4) S4 - Slayer Talent: Trap Finding
5) S5 - Double Slice; Studied Target: +2
6) S6 - Talent: Ranger Shield Style: Shield Master; Sneak: 2d6
7) S7 - ITWF; Stalker & Swift Studied Target
8) B1 - Rage (6 rounds/day); Fast Movement
9) B2 - Reckless Abandon; Iron Will (8 rounds/day)
10) B3 - (10 rounds/day)
11) B4 - Two Weapon Rend; Rage Power? (12 rounds/day)