We have a player in our group that has made a Brawler(Strangler) 2/ Rogue 5 character.
The Strangle(Ex)ability of the Brawler says
Strangle (Ex)At 1st level, a strangler deals +1d6 sneak attack damage whenever she succeeds at a grapple check to damage or pin an opponent. The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability. This damage increases by +1d6 at 2nd, 8th, and 15th levels.
Our GM is saying that at level 2 Brawler he would only do the 2d6 damage because sneak attack says "The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target."
His argument is that since the Damage option of a grapple says it "inflicts damage" it is not an attack and can't deal normal sneak damage so the character would only get the 2d6 given by Strangle itself.
I argue that first of all Grapple itself is under the "Special Attacks" section of the combat rules. So Grapple and all of its applicable options are attacks. Second PLUS 1d6 damage and not just a fixed 1d6 damage implies that it stacks with normal sneak damage and it is worded just like every other ability that stacks with normal sneak damage. Third the language about flanking is unnecessary if it just does the 2d6 when you damage or pin your opponent. The fact that it mentions you are considered flanking indicates that you are qualifying for your normal sneak attack damage.
I'd like some additional input from the forum to see what everyone else thinks.
If it wasn't supposed to, I would think they would call it "Precision damage" instead of "Sneak attack damage" (creatures immune to sneak attack damage are also immune to precision damage). This would also mean it wouldn't be necessary for them to put in to line "The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability." apart from a minor attack bonus.
However, most cases where sneak attack is being provided by a class that is not rogue states that the sneak attack damage stacks with other sources of sneak attack (see Master Spy and Assassin).
Then again, a lot of wording in Advanced Class Guide is already a little odd and not in-line with the rest of the mechanics language of Pathfinder, so it's hard to say.
I would say since it specifies sneak attack damage, that the damage stacks.
I have never seen sneak attack not stack so I think it does. Since you are flanking, and the rogue sneak attack calls out flanking it should apply.
Grapples are attacks since they use attack rolls. That is stated in the combat chapter so if his reasoning is based on "not an attack" then he is incorrect. To go further I will also stat that all of the combat maneuvers are attacks.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
I have never seen sneak attack not stack so I think it does. Since you are flanking, and the rogue sneak attack calls out flanking it should apply.
Grapples are attacks since they use attack rolls. That is stated in the combat chapter so if his reasoning is based on "not an attack" then he is incorrect. To go further I will also stat that all of the combat maneuvers are attacks.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
Nice find Wraithstrike. It does indeed say you are making an attack roll.
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When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus.
What he said. All combat maneuvers are attacks, If the ability says you're flanking when you make the attack, that grants your other sneak damage hence why you get +1d6 sneak attack as well.
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The strangler is always considered flanking her target for the purpose of using this ability
If you also met the conditions for the rogue's sneak attack then sure, they would stack. But this ability by itself doesn't say anything about you counting as flanking the target for other abilities. If they wanted to all out give the user flanking it wouldn't be worded this way and would instead say something along the lines of "The strangler is always considered flanking her target when she and her target are in the same grapple."
I'm new to using the Strangler archetype and am trying to figure the Strangle ability out, and I'm sorry if I repeat anything already stated. If I do it is because I'm confused and hope you can help me sort it out.
So the brawler is always considered flanking flanking her target for the use of this ability; does that mean the brawler also gets the +2 to hit since they are considered flanking? So if that's true, then a brawler would get +2 from flanking on top of the +5 because his opponent did not break free of the grapple, leaving a +7 bonus to maintain the grapple. Would that be correct?
And still on the flanking note, only the brawler is considered flanking in order to deal the 1d6 strangle damage, right? So that while the brawler has an opponent grappled, allies still will not be able to stand opposite the brawler and gain flanking on the same opponent. Hope I said that right.
And the strangle damage only applies when you already have an opponent grappled, correct? So when you first roll to grapple, and succeed, you would not apply strangle damage until you are able to maintain the grapple the next round.
Any help you all can offer will be greatly appreciated!!