Hi all,
First time poster. This is a meta-heavy post. Feel free to skip to the questions.
Background:
I am a longtime DM who hasn't played in years and has agree to play in a campaign with 3-5 brand new players in Rappan Athuk, starting at level 1 (currently lv. 2). This is my first Pathfinder campaign ever, although I have many years of playtime in 3.x and 4th. My roles, assigned by the other players, are: rules teacher, character designer and "don't let us die"'er.
Our party consists of: An Aasimar master summoner (me), A Drow evangelist hangover cleric, a variant Aasimar menhir druid, a Sylph alchemist, a Duergar mounted fury barbarian and a variant Aasimar Vengance paladin archer.
We have a very powerful party if everyone shows up. The MS, Cleric and Barb are always present with 1d3 additional players.
With that said, RA is proving to have wild swings in CR at level. We fled from a single target CR 5 and 7 at 1st level, nearly getting wiped. Last session, we had a tense, awesome game of cat and mouse with a gargoyle we couldn't harm as he ripped through doors, barricades and summons to kill us. My eidolon has 22 points of ability damage and is permanently blind. Everything is pretty much poisoned, diseased and cursed.
The DM has warned us that we will be getting mugged by creatures with +8 to 10 CR advantages. While I fully intend to give up my wallet when that happens, sooner or later, I'm going to have to take the wallet back.
We do not have access to a magic mart of any kind. We cannot go to an easier area to level. We are assembling a revenge list. We manage big combats with lots of targets really well.
Q's:
1.) How does a 1st level party kill a CR 5-7 target, assuming it 1 round kills multiple targets, has reach and also has a climb speed? A dire bear is a fine example.
2.) How does a 4th level party deal with a CR 10 monster that brings SR, powerful SLA's, superior movement and complex DR to the table? Think Vrock.
3.) What's the lowest level anyone has killed a CR 14-16 dragon? A Balor? A carpet of hundreds of highly poisonous medium creatures with climb speeds?
If you like that sort of thing that's fine. However +8 or so CR against average party level should in theory be a TPK.
CR+4 is a challenging encounter, and is more or less fair game in the Pathfinder CR system, but should be used with some care. CR+5 is mathematically against the party.
CR+8 should be a death sentence.
Now CR isn't everything but in such a game you must be careful when you engage. It's not a kill fest. Stealth diplomacy and knowledge rule the day. Either that or fast feet.
If you are facing such beasts and the only option being given is to fight then you need to talk to your GM. Unless of course everyone is having fun then hey, keep on going.
I recommend checking out this guide. GM’s Guide to Creating Challenging Encounters
As for your bear example here is how you would take it down - Druid casts entangle which at minimum makes difficult terrain so it can't charge. As a summoner you put summons in it's path. Pelt it with ranged attacks as it struggles to get to you.
You tell your GM that you're not enjoying that the encounters are specifically built at CR ranges outside of the kind of things your party can fight. This is especially true given that high-CR creatures at low levels often have damage resistances that nobody can bypass.
As a GM I had an imp go up against 5 level 1 players and 2 level 2 players. Even with four people surrounding the imp, the fight lasted an hour and a half, with the imp knocking out one player.
I had this encounter partly to teach the players the importance of getting special material weapons, which is why I had the imp be alone save for a regular bandit with a silver dagger.
My first Pathfinder game as a player consisted completely of level 1 characters, and we ended up facing an enemy that flew, had fast healing, and an AC of 21, along with damage resistance. The fight lasted three hours, and we were only able to beat it by drawing the enemy into a room where it could not fly.
With this, I have one question, is this Rappan Athuk a product from a 3rd party publisher?
You tell your GM that you're not enjoying that the encounters are specifically built at CR ranges outside of the kind of things your party can fight. This is especially true given that high-CR creatures at low levels often have damage resistances that nobody can bypass.
As a GM I had an imp go up against 5 level 1 players and 2 level 2 players. Even with four people surrounding the imp, the fight lasted an hour and a half, with the imp knocking out one player.
I had this encounter partly to teach the players the importance of getting special material weapons, which is why I had the imp be alone save for a regular bandit with a silver dagger.
My first Pathfinder game as a player consisted completely of level 1 characters, and we ended up facing an enemy that flew, had fast healing, and an AC of 21, along with damage resistance. The fight lasted three hours, and we were only able to beat it by drawing the enemy into a room where it could not fly.
With this, I have one question, is this Rappan Athuk a product from a 3rd party publisher?
Yes, it is, and it is designed to be a potential adventure of death, and it is widely known to be intentionally made that way. People that play it, and the other one, whose name escapes me, normally knows ahead of time what they are getting into. So it is not the players think they are going into a regular campaign and the GM pulled a "gotcha".
PS: I am sure some GM might do this, so I am not speaking for everyone when I say the GM lets the players know about possible TPKs before he runs it.
With this, I have one question, is this Rappan Athuk a product from a 3rd party publisher?
Yes, Rappan Athuk is from Frog God Games
I think the idea is that you're not actually supposed to fight and kill everything. Some things you spot, decide they're too strong, and you come back in a few levels.
My understanding is that this is very true for Rappan Athuk (I haven't played or looked over the campaign).
People that play it, and the other one, whose name escapes me, normally knows ahead of time what they are getting into.
Slumbering Tsar.
I second the spiritual intent to incapacitate and isolate the encounter. Entangle, trip, daze, blind, sicken, or otherwise debuff as much as possible, use the summons to screen and the casters and low damage output guys to absorb hits when they are out of tricks, while the melees dance in and out, giving ground liberally to avoid reach and abilities. If you have false life, use it.
But there is a point where this wont work and luck of the dice will matter most.
I am just assuming diplomacy is not an option.
Don't underestimate the value of running like heck. Possibly with a summoned creature staying behind to give you a minute to get away.
Beyond that though, it looks like you have fairly strong characters, assuming you work together tactically you can probably handle a CR+4 encounter fairly rapidly. Beyond that, it is incredibly chancy as it becomes likely, as you have already indicated, that you will be facing foes with abilities you can't resist or counter.
When that happens run, hide, surrender, and do whatever you can to stay alive so you can come back another day (that day being after a few levels.)
And, remember it is a game, and Rappan Athuk is playing on hard mode. You will probably have a few character deaths. Just try and make them memorable.
We run often and fast.
The meta-gimmick of RA seems to be 2 CR+3-4 and one CR +6-8 encounter in every area. Also, every other trap targets you instead of you saving from it.
The GM hasn't been vindictive in my opinion; monsters have acted like their intelligence and motivations should dictate.
@ Hawk: As a DM, I wholly agree that CR +8 is insane. In 20 years of DM'ing I've never put a party against that, except in heavy RP moments, like when you first find out the BBEG is a mook of a BBBEG.
@ Dave: I'm confident we'll have deaths, despite our best efforts.
What I'm curious about is twofold:
1.) The fringes of level discrepancy power and survival. I know the bear is toast at level 3, because I can choke him with multi-summons while everyone else lays into him at range. At level 1, we simply ran.
2.) What if you can't run? The gargoyle almost had us. We botched our knowledge check, we couldn't stand and fight and he was faster and stronger. We were temporarily trapped in the level with him. I bought time and the party used our better knowledge of secret doors, magic zones, etc. to bluff him repeatedly until he gave up. It was a great encounter, but razor's edge to a TPK.
But...lots of monsters are smarter, faster AND can teleport. I'm honestly not sure how to flee a demon or earth elemental way above our level. It seems like a Scooby Doo where everyone goes a different way and we see who get's out. I want to avoid 2.5 hours of agonizing horror movie scenes.
For me this is prep work, since this module seems to be no holds barred.
1.) The fringes of level discrepancy power and survival. I know the bear is toast at level 3, because I can choke him with multi-summons while everyone else lays into him at range. At level 1, we simply ran.
If there was some distance between you and the bear, you probably could have taken it if you had the entangle spell prepped and ready as previously mentioned. Even at level 1 an eagle is still getting 4 attacks in against the bear (3+1 AOO). Dire bears don't have reach, so you can attack it in melee as a last ditch effort. Granted if it makes a full attack against anyone they are in for a bad day.
If the GM simply said 'There is a Dire Bear next to you' you are again, in for a bad day.
2.) What if you can't run? The gargoyle almost had us. We botched our knowledge check, we couldn't stand and fight and he was faster and stronger. We were temporarily trapped in the level with him. I bought time and the party used our better knowledge of secret doors, magic zones, etc. to bluff him repeatedly until he gave up. It was a great encounter, but razor's edge to a TPK.
I suspect you may want to invest into tanglefoot bags for those more dexterously inclined in your party. Not only does it help greatly vs flyers but the entangled condition forces concentration checks for casters and creatures with spell like abilities. I also think there is a new spell in the Advanced Class Guide that mimics the effect as a level 1 or 2 spell so you won't be burning gold as you run away (which is not usually profitable). The Grease and Pit spells are also pretty good but don't help against flyers.
And as a last ditch effort, you don't need to run faster then the enemy. Just faster then your friend. Trip your friend. :)
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But...lots of monsters are smarter, faster AND can teleport. I'm honestly not sure how to flee a demon or earth elemental way above our level.
True. If a Balor gets in his head that he is going to hunt down and kill a 1st level party, then that party is going to die. Chances are though, this isn't going to happen. A Balor isn't probably going to bother hunting you down. Most likely, he is where he is for a purpose (bound to guard something etc.) and if you don't interfere, he won't be chasing you. This is probably even more true for an elemental, who at least don't have a demonic desire to slay everyone.
Honestly, it sounds like you are doing great, and having fun. Just keep doing what you are doing, and trust that although you are playing in a very dangerous setting, you will be able to continue dealing with it.
Hawk,
This is my first time ever playing a neutral character, perhaps the trip move might be doable. I'll add it to my list along with post-trip guilt RP, "I....it was....I didn't have a choice!"
Dave,
I am having a riot. I had forgotten the glowing eyes of new players when they succeed followed by their sheer real life panic when the same trick doesn't work twice. We actually had a player gasp, "But...I don't want to die!"
I'm seriously considering posting our adventure logs.