Sources of Magic (Shaman and the conundrums it stir in my mind.)

[Othniel Edden]

(This is from a thematic point of view. I understand the need for distinct mechanical differences, but would like some help interpreting some class differences.)

So as I understand it magic comes about in a few ways. It can be learnt and studied(Wizard, Bard), it can be something inherent that you are born with (sorcerer, oracle, it can be granted by a more powerful being (witches, clerics, inquisitors) or concept (druids and rangers with nature or the green faith, prophecies of kalistrade, paladins with goodness?), and it can be forged through a bond(shamans and summoners).

Learned, Inherent, Granted and Bonded Magics.

Of these only Learned Magic does not come initially from an outside power. Inherent Magics are the only ones not learned from an outside source. Granted and Bonded come both from interacting with some sort of outside source being.

First off is this a good basic way of looking at magic or am I missing some important nuances?

Secondly, what are the differences between these outside sources. How does getting your spells by interacting with an Eidolon, Patron, or Spirit differ so greatly from the interactions brought with interacting with Nature, Philosophy and the Divine?

Thirdly, what makes those entities distinct? Patrons and Spirits are mechanically identical, but are categorized differently. Are the same thing, or are spirits the manifestations of mysteries they parrot? Are spirit animals and familiars to patrons and spirits as outsiders are to deities? And how do eidolons fit in this interaction? Do any of these sources interact with one another?

Please someone help me straighten out my Pathfinder cosmology. Thank you.

[zapbib]

You are neither right nor wrong and your question makes little sense. Pathfinder as a game product has no clearly defined cosmology, if your Dm says bard get all their power from worshiping the moon in your game then so it is. The only think there are are mechanical difference from class to class and fluff suggestion to go with them. Some specific universe related with pathfinder can have specific rules for this (like golarion) but the game defined by the rulebooks have no such cosmology. Theres the deity worshiping section, but it can be waived by following a concept.

[mechaPoet]

@ zapbib: Well, that's unhelpful. While cosmology can vary by game, there are definite fictional implications in the way that the class blurbs and relevant abilities are written.

That said, I am finding it a little bit difficult to understand your question. I haven't personally put a lot of thought into it, and I'm also curious about why you're asking these questions. I'm not really sure what the implications or stakes of these questions are. You may have more luck bringing this type of question to the campaign setting discussion forum.

[Othniel Edden]

If it makes it better zapbib I'm asking as a DM. I want to be able to explain why the fluff that goes along with and is described by the mechanics works together so that I can world-build with that information.

MechaPoet, basically I want to know how Patrons are different from Spirits(spirits differ from mysteries only in that they grant hexes instead of revelations)? I see that mechanically that patrons, mysteries/spirits and domains(judgements, blessings) are all similar in that they are aspects that grant access to thematic spells and abilities. Heck, bloodlines work the same way. I knows that they are similar because there are only so many ways of doing things. I know that class descriptions are only snapshots of the concept behind a class. However fluffwise they do work very different from one another. I really don't want to handwave it and say this is just how magic works. I want to explain the differences between them.

The question is supposed to be setting neutral, and its a little high concept. But I really find the fluff behind it invocative and my research isn't leading me anywhere.

[Malwing]

The way I see it magic is either granted from an outside force (cleric), created from learning how to manipulate the magic around you (wizard) or expressed from magic within (Bard)

How I tried to logic it out in my home games.

Clerics/Oracles are granted divine magic from deities whether from learning it from the lore of their prayers (cleric) or deemed worthy of the power regardless of their desire for it or it's consequence.

Druids/Rangers gain divine magic from 'notions', the collective cosmic influence of their environment. This becomes important in campaigns where they move planet because cosmic locations grant newer abilities in my campaigns.

Wizards/Alchemist/Witches learn how to manipulate the general magic energy around them and within them. Witch is a strange case in that its implied that the patron does not necessarily grant the witch abilities but educates her in the mysteries it represents. What the patron IS is ill defined so I presume that it functions more like the 'notion' concept and tie both the familiar and nature magic into fae lore. Druid magic are the notions that are stagnant and require protection and reverence while Familiars are speaking for the notions of evolution, deconstruction and change.

Paladins, Sorcerers and Bards are special cases where they are expressing through magic. In the case of Bards they are expressing through arts to impress their will and thus manipulate magic around them, and with Sorcerers they are expressing the will of their heritage which is why both are spontaneous and arcane. The Paladin is powered not necessarily by gods but being so entrenched in his alignment that he connects with the forces of good in a primal way and expresses that energy, same with Antipaladins and evil.

So the Sources are
External Primal(Sometimes taught in the form of arcane knowledge)

Internal Study (Where it becomes more of a science regardless of the source of the knowledge)

Internal Expressed (Whether arcane or divine)

External Deity (granted from entities with domains)

I also look at things differently based on casting stat. INT for learning/understanding, WIS for revering, and CHA for expressing.

With the subdivide of divine and arcane where arcane is a manipulation of general energies and divine being internal or external will.

Where am I going to fit the Shaman in all this? Shaman casts divine spells so it would be will based. She casts with Wisdom so it would be something revered instead of understood or expressed. A sort of familiar is involved so I would assume taught. Altogether I presume that the Shaman is taught to manifest internal will by the instruction of an external primal influence.

Or I'm just babbling nonsense.

[zapbib]

Well, I still think this would go more in campaign setting, but I dont mind giving one possible interpretation.

All magic is real, all are related to fundamental laws of matter and energy that govern the cosmos. Think of the understanding of magic as the understanding of physic today. Imagine being able to manipulate or see electrons, or photons or atoms. The average person cannot do that, yet a trained scientist with specific tools can do that, but so could some craftsman or chemist of days past even if they didn't really understand it.

All class ability that relate to magic express how each character can 1: perceive things that can be manipulated around them and 2: Interact with these things.

So a wizard/sorcerer/magus learn to manipulate things everyone can but need a specific training to get a vision of what he can do.
A bard do the same but learned to use music to focus/practice or achieve a formula to get a result. The musical vibration allow to interact with the world in a different way.

A cleric/oracle/shaman/inquisitor/druid is given specific tool to interact with the world that are not available to normal mortal, maybe they guide spirit to act for them or gods or trees

A summoner either contacted an entity that extend how he can manipulate the world, or simply learned to do it like a sorcerer and the eidolon is merely a construct he made.

Tl:dr The universe is governed by universal law that cannot be broken, to do magic is to learn some part of these law and acquire some way to use them.

[Bob Bob Bob]

So I always thought it was basically only three different kinds of gaining magic, granted, inherent, and studied. Bonded I don't really see except as granted, though I also see combinations of these things.

So a wizard is pure studied, through careful SCIENCE! they learn to warp reality to their will. Alchemist also fits well here.

A cleric is pure granted, prayer and a god handing down magic from on high. Same for a druid and nature.

Closest to a pure inherent would probably be a wordcasting sorcerer, as his magic is pure spontaneity based only on his magic prowess.

A sorcerer is a combination of inherent and studied, because for all their "I whip out this spell whenever I want" it's still in all ways a wizard spell.

Oracles are granted and inherent, as the power comes from them but a diety helps them out.

Witches are granted and studied, probably, since they learn specific powerful spells so long as their patron is willing to teach them.

Bard I like to picture as some kind of hybrid of all three. You use the power of Rock (inherent) to convince the universe (granted) to give you this spell effect you want (studied).

That's... kind of messy. Maybe give the combinations names.

Studied
Guided Study (studied + granted)
Granted
Powered (granted + inherent)
Inherent
Directed (studied + inherent)
Music hath charms to soothe the savage breast (all of the above)
I really can't come up with a good name for the last one, as I only really see the bard doing it. It's really the only one with music as its power source.

Again, this is all fluff. Clearly the player picks the spells, but most divine classes seem to assume some divine intervention. Same with most arcane classes and studying. You can definitely fluff most spontaneous caster as pure inherent, I just never did.