If you've got a template or something else appropriately showing the AoE, are you required to force your character's spell effects to match the grid?
(this seems ludicrous, but I actually had a GM tell me in a PFS session I had to match the grid. It was ... insane.)
-Ben.
In PFS, yes. At home, ask your GM.
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking - could you elaborate?
In PFS, yes. At home, ask your GM.
A reference, please?
In PFS, yes. At home, ask your GM.A reference, please?
That's how the areas are defined.
areas of effect defined
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking - could you elaborate?
Sure. For the purposes of this conversation, I'll define "template" as "an appropriately shaped outline of a spell effect." This might be a clear plastic shape, a wire outline, a thin piece of wood, a cut sheet of paper, or something else accurately sized.
I'm also presuming there is a gridded mat, with miniatures, and there is a map drawn on that mat.
Abe the Wizard wants to cast fireball and his player has a template which provides the appropriate area of effect. Is Abe's player required to lay that template so it lines up with the grid printed on the map? If so, where is this requirement stated?
-Ben.
There it is:
Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.
wow. "Ask for your limitations, and sure enough, they're yours."
thanks,
-Ben.
It's not the shape he wants to change. More like he's asking if the effected area has to line up on the grid.
And yes, it does, because that's how the game works.
I don't believe he is asking to adjust the shape. He just wants to not line it up on the gridline. Presumably to get effect on some different squares due to partially covering them with the template.
Not for PFS, since the books define the shapes as relates to a grid.
Some home game GM's will allow it. I seen some also say a partially covered square gives only half damage or gets a +4 on the save.
The CRB shows how spell shapes work and they all line up with the grid. Since there are no examples of spell templates that do not line up with the grid, you cannot cast a spell that does not line up with the grid.
This is a positively ridiculous justification. The text in the PRD states that it must be an intersection. That's what I needed. I find it a terrible limitation on imaginative play, but it's what I was looking for.
-Ben.
The CRB shows how spell shapes work and they all line up with the grid. Since there are no examples of spell templates that do not line up with the grid, you cannot cast a spell that does not line up with the grid.This is a positively ridiculous justification. The text in the PRD states that it must be an intersection. That's what I needed. I find it a terrible limitation on imaginative play, but it's what I was looking for.
-Ben.
How does it limit imaginative play? Because you cant hit additional targets by having it half in and half out of squares? The character's move in 5' squares, why wouldnt the areas of affects also operate in 5' squares when ALL of them are sized in 5' increments?
How does it limit imaginative play? Because you cant hit additional targets by having it half in and half out of squares? The character's move in 5' squares, why wouldnt the areas of affects also operate in 5' squares when ALL of them are sized in 5' increments?The CRB shows how spell shapes work and they all line up with the grid. Since there are no examples of spell templates that do not line up with the grid, you cannot cast a spell that does not line up with the grid.This is a positively ridiculous justification. The text in the PRD states that it must be an intersection. That's what I needed. I find it a terrible limitation on imaginative play, but it's what I was looking for.
-Ben.
I agree. In my home game we use a gridless map and a measuring tape so it is no big deal to use a circular template for AoE. If you are using a grid though for movement and everything else how does it suddenly become a limitation on imagination to use it for AoE?
It does occasionally limit things.
I while back, I can't remember the exact setup. But 3+ of my allies were in a line. One opponent was attacking the guy in the middle of the line. There was no where I could stand around the end of the line to hit the opponent and not my allies. I couldn't just turn far enough that the edge goes between enemies and allies.
Couldn't use the perfect spell because of the grid system. Almost any GM in a home game would have allowed it
So yeah, it is rare, but can occasionally cause a problem.
For society play, they have to make things a little bit more rigorous just so there isn't as much 'GM interpretation' deciding the outcome.
This spell targets one 5 foot square; I'll put it at the corner of four map squares and hit all four of my enemies!
It does occasionally limit things.
I while back, I can't remember the exact setup. But 3+ of my allies were in a line. One opponent was attacking the guy in the middle of the line. There was no where I could stand around the end of the line to hit the opponent and not my allies. I couldn't just turn far enough that the edge goes between enemies and allies.
Like this? (E=Enemy, A=Ally, U=you, o = space)
oA
EA
oA
oU
If you were casting a 'line' effect you could have started it in the 2nd o and progressed it onward (or stepped to 3rd o if possible). If you were casting a 'cone' effect, you could have used a diagonal cone to hit E. Not sure how you can not be able to hit due to the grid.
Because creatures take up whole squares in the game, not based on how big their minis happen to be.
It sounds like you know how the rules work but want us to fight your battle with a VL or VC for you. PFS has to be standardized so that every player has the same rules and effects as any other player, including a player with a custom template. The template might be cool, but if it doesn't exactly match up with how the game measures distances in a radius, it doesn't fly. Plenty of games measure effects without templates, so there's no reason to change anything to accommodate one in a PFS game. In a home game, sure. Do whatcha want.
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There is a simple reason for this limitation:
the characters and the NPC are limited by the grid in how and where they can move. If you use templates for the area of the spells but force the character to move along the grid the casters and creatures with powers with an area effect will get a noticeable benefit. so you either use the grid for all stuff or you use actual measurements for all stuff.
It sounds like you know how the rules work but want us to fight your battle with a VL or VC for you.
Not at all.
I was looking for the reference in the PRD which I found with the link Kydeem de'Morcaine provided. Yes, standardized interpretation for organized play is important. And with that in mind, the rule is explicitly set with the text, and not just because all of the examples show it that way (they could just be showing the size of the area of effect). If the requirement to use a grid vertex wasn't set by the PRD then there'd be no reason why you couldn't drop your template anywhere you wanted. But there is an explicit requirement, and that's what I wanted to find.
-Ben.
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If you've got a template or something else appropriately showing the AoE, are you required to force your character's spell effects to match the grid?
(this seems ludicrous, but I actually had a GM tell me in a PFS session I had to match the grid. It was ... insane.)
-Ben.
Yes because it's a grid based game. A DM could decide to throw away the grids, and everyone get out the measuring tape, but that is a lot more work, and a lot more overhead in designing maps, for the DM to do. The maps in modules are designed for the grid system, and corner to corner cover, etc.
The grid is only an approximation. The characters are not actually filling up the entire square, nor are the exactly in the center. They are somewhere in the square. That means you can't just slighly move your Line of Sight over and hit them. You are basically asking for a grid of 1 foot by 1 foot, instead of 5x5. It's not just about PFS but all the rules for cover and LOS would break if you could draw the spell affect areas from anywhere.
For the cones or lines,
1. you can use one of those templates from any corner of the square you are in. (i may be wrong about this one)
2. you can mirror them (flip l/r)
3. they are only for a small area, for larger areas/lines/cones just continue the pattern.
You can figure it out by laying out a square grid, then drawing a circle (this is pretty easy to do in Excel). You can see the squares that are at least 50% covered by the circle are in the template. Same goes for the cones.
we draw lines in Roll20, because it is easier, but still start from the corners, therfore but we maintain the rule above, so we still match the template.
If you are allowed to move your lines a little, just to match, then the enemy is also allowed to say "I'm not in the middle of the square, i'm in the corner, so the player can't hit me with the spell"
So be careful what you wish for.
It does occasionally limit things.
I while back, I can't remember the exact setup. But 3+ of my allies were in a line. One opponent was attacking the guy in the middle of the line. There was no where I could stand around the end of the line to hit the opponent and not my allies. I couldn't just turn far enough that the edge goes between enemies and allies.Like this? (E=Enemy, A=Ally, U=you, o = space)
oA
EA
oA
oUIf you were casting a 'line' effect you could have started it in the 2nd o and progressed it onward (or stepped to 3rd o if possible). If you were casting a 'cone' effect, you could have used a diagonal cone to hit E. Not sure how you can not be able to hit due to the grid.
It's been a couple of years, so I don't remember the specifics. I just remember the melee guys intentionally stayed in a line specifically so that I could use the burning hands spell on the enemy. (Might not have been a perfectly vertical or horizontal line though.) But when we tried to draw it out, we couldn't find a way to hit it and not us. Fairly annoying.
But that was only once* in about 3 years of playing PFS.
*Probably at least partially because I now look to make sure I will be able to do it before hand.