Yet another greater trip AoO question.

[Merm7th]

I believe it's been established that the AoO granted by greater trip occurs before the tripped character is prone. AoO's occur before the trigger of the AoO. A character with a high number of AoO's, a high trip bonus, and greater trip, successfully trips a character. This provokes an attack of opportunity, which he uses to trip, provoking an attack of opportunity which he uses to trip... All allies with combat reflexes attack up a storm.
"You expertly hook the opponents foot causing them to stumble wildly which you capitalize on to hook their other foot, causing them to stumble wildly in another direction..."

Does this work?

[kinevon]

RAW, possibly; RAI, no.

Actually: Ask your GM how they would rule it.

As a GM, I might allow it, but I would think it was a less than ideal use of both your AoOs, and your allies.

I have a Greater Trip build, which has 10 AoOs due to high Dex and Combat Reflexes, and I have never seen a situation where this would be a viable idea, much less a good one.

If your trip target is vulnerable to tripping, it probably has something worth disarming, so that is, usually, what my trip build uses his AoO for.

After that, with a prone, disarmed target, potentially already hurt from my allies' AoOs, it usually isn't worth it to let what few of my allies' have Combat Reflexes burn those AoOs up.

After all, the prone guy either takes a penalty to hit, or provokes trying to stand up. Or grab his fallen weapon. And uses up all his actions just trying to get upright with a weapon. And then everyone gets attacks on him, gets their AoOs reset, and the fun continues. ;)

[Lifat]

As Kinevon said: RAI? Absolutely no.
RAW? Maybe. But isn't there a rule against getting multiple AoO's against the same target for the same "offense", meaning that you could get an AoO for his movement, for the trip attempt, for spellcasting and much more, but not multiple AoO for him falling over. I might just be imagining things or remembering 3.0/3.5 stuff though...

[Kazaan]

It helps if you look at it using the Declare/Determine/Resolve model. Declare is when you state what your action will be and spend your action economy. At this point, you've committed to your action and, if something prevents you from following through, you can't get back your standard, move, that attack in your full-attack, whatever. Determine is when you roll to see if you succeed or fail. You don't apply the results of the success or failure at that point, mind you, but you roll a success or failure and hold on to that result. Resolve is when you actually apply the results of success or failure determined in the Determine phase. Now, when we say an AoO interrupts the flow of combat, what it really means is that it occurs between trigger and the next phase. For example, when making a ranged attack, you provoke on the Declare phase. So the enemy gets their AoO between Declare and Determine. If they trip you, you will be considered Prone when making your ranged attack (if that matters, ie. using a Bow). In the case of Greater Trip, the trigger is a successful Determine phase so the AoO occurs between Determine and Resolve; after you've succeeded but before you apply that success to make them fall prone. Vicious Stomp triggers on the Resolution phase so it occurs after Resolution but before any other action can take place. That having been said, there's no rule that says you can't trip a prone target. The issue is that it has no appreciable effect because the flow would be as follows:

1) Declare: stand up.
2) Provoke: AoO
3) Declare AoO: trip.
4) Determine AoO: Success.
5) Resolve AoO: target gains redundant Prone condition.
6) Determine: nothing prevents successful stand up action so auto-success.
7) Resolve: clear Prone condition.

So the Trip was successful and, thus, if a successful trip triggers any AoOs (as from Greater Trip), they may be performed. It would be exactly as you put it; you hooked their foot and, as they were stumbling, you hooked their other foot and made them stumble in another direction. Or, if they were already prone, you caused them to stumble as they were getting up, but they still managed to get to their feet; not as gracefully as they would have liked, but there it is.

[Trekkie90909]

From AoO:

Quote:

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Being tripped once provokes; you can perform a single subsequent trip if you want (it accomplishes nothing), and that subsequent trip does not provoke becaues it would be more than one attack for the same opportunity.

[Kazaan]

When it says you may not make more than one AoO for a given opportunity, it's referring to the specific instance, not that trigger for the whole round. If someone makes a ranged attack, you can't burn all 4 of your AoOs on the single ranged attack, but you most certainly can take a second AoO if they make a second ranged attack. If they make four ranged attacks, you can use your 4 AoOs, one on each trigger. The followup trip counts as its own trigger.

[Trekkie90909]

This is a movement based provocation. If someone moves out of a threatened square (without 5 foot step) they provoke. If they move out of a second threatened square then they do not provoke a second attack because "This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity." You trip once -> guy starts falling -> provokes because of feat. You trip twice -> guy still falling -> does not unless you decided not to take the previous attack or someone burned a hero point/etc to move to threaten as an immediate action.

[bbangerter]

Being tripped is not called out as movement. It is not a form of movement in the game mechanics sense. It is therefore not a provocation from movement.

[Trekkie90909]

Trip Combat Maneuver wrote:

If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone.

Ignoring the word "knocked," and any movement thereby implied, succeeding on the first trip check causes the enemy to gain the prone condition.

Since you cannot trip someone who is prone you can't use the AoO to make a second trip check.

[bbangerter]

AoO's go off before the event that triggers them. The triggering event is being knocked prone in this case.

[Trekkie90909]

bbangerter wrote:

AoO's go off before the event that triggers them. The triggering event is being knocked prone in this case.

In the case of trip the enemy gains the prone condition immediately as soon as the roll is declared a success. As you have pointed out the trigger is not that enemies are knocked prone, the trigger is a successful trip check. Therefore the act of becoming prone and the AoO are resolved simultaneously. The AoO can't go off before the action that trigger it, because in this case that would be before the success condition for the trip check was revealed.

[bbangerter]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

In the case of trip the enemy gains the prone condition immediately as soon as the roll is declared a success. As you have pointed out the trigger is not that enemies are knocked prone, the trigger is a successful trip check. Therefore the act of becoming prone and the AoO are resolved simultaneously. The AoO can't go off before the action that trigger it, because in this case that would be before the success condition for the trip check was revealed.

Citation needed. Note that if this is actually correct (which can neither be proven nor disproven) it also means any AoO's generated from the trip get the +4 to hit for the target being prone.

[Trekkie90909]

Look up the trip combat maneuver; the relevant quote is 3 posts up from yours.

Yes, the enemy is prone with all the advantages and disadvantages therein.

[bbangerter]

Your making assumptions about when prone is applied relative to when the AoO's go off.

As I said, it can neither be proven nor disproven.

[Trekkie90909]

RAW agrees with me. A FAQ would be nice though.

[bbangerter]

No it doesn't. The triggering condition for the AoO is that the target is tripped. AoO's go off before the triggering condition. (It is not clear that that is RAI in this case, but the RAW is the AoO goes before the trip occurs).

[kinevon]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

bbangerter wrote:

AoO's go off before the event that triggers them. The triggering event is being knocked prone in this case.

In the case of trip the enemy gains the prone condition immediately as soon as the roll is declared a success. As you have pointed out the trigger is not that enemies are knocked prone, the trigger is a successful trip check. Therefore the act of becoming prone and the AoO are resolved simultaneously. The AoO can't go off before the action that trigger it, because in this case that would be before the success condition for the trip check was revealed.

So, you are saying that if my PC does a successful Trip attack, then, because he has Greater Trip, he takes his AoO from having successfully tripped the target, he gets his AoO with the +4 for attacking a prone target?

[Trekkie90909]

Quote:

No it doesn't. The triggering condition for the AoO is that the target is tripped. AoO's go off before the triggering condition. (It is not clear that that is RAI in this case, but the RAW is the AoO goes before the trip occurs).

You're still arguing that the AoO goes off before the trip action succeeds. From greater trip.

Quote:

Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

You CANNOT cause a secondary condition which is dependent upon a primary success before the primary condition succeeds. Otherwise greater trip would read "when you perform the trip action the target enemy provokes attacks of opportunity." This is RAW.

EDIT: @Kinevon bb ninja'd you, but yes he (and any nearby allies who can take an AoO) gets the bonus vs a prone target.

[bbangerter]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Quote:

No it doesn't. The triggering condition for the AoO is that the target is tripped. AoO's go off before the triggering condition. (It is not clear that that is RAI in this case, but the RAW is the AoO goes before the trip occurs).

You're still arguing that the AoO goes off before the trip action succeeds. From greater trip.

Quote:

Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

You CANNOT cause a secondary condition which is dependent upon a primary success before the primary condition succeeds. Otherwise greater trip would read "when you perform the trip action the target enemy provokes attacks of opportunity." This is RAW.

EDIT: @Kinevon bb ninja'd you, but yes.

This argument is no different than saying that the AoO from a player standing up happens after they stand up (removing the prone condition via standing up is a secondary effect of successfully standing up). We know, via FAQ, that this is specifically not the case. The AoO happens before they stand up.

EDIT: I've already had this discussion and seen it argued at length. I understand where you are coming from. I just don't feel the rules support is very strong in your favor.

[kinevon]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Quote:

No it doesn't. The triggering condition for the AoO is that the target is tripped. AoO's go off before the triggering condition. (It is not clear that that is RAI in this case, but the RAW is the AoO goes before the trip occurs).

You're still arguing that the AoO goes off before the trip action succeeds. From greater trip.

Quote:

Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

You CANNOT cause a secondary condition which is dependent upon a primary success before the primary condition succeeds. Otherwise greater trip would read "when you perform the trip action the target enemy provokes attacks of opportunity." This is RAW.

EDIT: @Kinevon bb ninja'd you, but yes he (and any nearby allies who can take an AoO) gets the bonus vs a prone target.

Greater Trip wrote:

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

As compared to:

Vicious Stomp wrote:

Benefit: Whenever an opponent falls prone adjacent to you, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. This attack must be an unarmed strike.

And it has been stated that if you have both Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, you get two AoOs as a result.

Being tripped is not the same as winding up prone after after being tripped.

So, event: George trips Robert. Robert starts to fall. George and friends get to whack Robert as he loses his balance. Robert winds up prone on the ground, at which point friend Kevin gets to take another AoO and play whack-a-mole on the now-prone Robert with an unarmed attack.

So:
Trip succeeds
Greater Trip AoOs activate
Trip target falls prone
Vicious Stomp AoOs activate

[Trekkie90909]

Actually it is different; standing up is a move action, falling prone -as per the trip combat maneuver- is an instantaneous action. The reasoning from the FAQ is "the trip provoked from standing up happens as soon as the person starts getting up, if successful they fall back down but retain enough time to stand up again without penalty."

RAW the FAQ says it's not that the trip doesn't immediately knock the defender prone a second time (it supports this), it's that he has enough time to stand up again anyway.

Here it's:

-> attacker's trip success: true
-> gain status: prone
-> Attacker has greater trip: true
-> provoke AoO from threatening enemies

Steps 2 and 4 happen simultaneously and instantaneously -> neither disrupts the flow of combat.

EDIT: @Kinevon: what was the question exactly?

[kinevon]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Actually it is different; standing up is a move action, falling prone -as per the trip combat maneuver- is an instantaneous action. The reasoning from the FAQ is "the trip provoked from standing up happens as soon as the person starts getting up, if successful they fall back down but retain enough time to stand up again without penalty."

RAW the FAQ says it's not that the trip doesn't immediately knock the defender prone a second time (it supports this), it's that he has enough time to stand up again anyway.

Here it's:

-> attacker's trip success: true
-> gain status: prone
-> Attacker has greater trip: true
-> provoke AoO from threatening enemies

Steps 2 and 4 happen simultaneously and instantaneously -> neither disrupts the flow of combat.

Again:

-> attacker's trip success: true
-> Attacker has greater trip: true
-> provoke AoO from threatening enemies
-> gain status: prone

Because AoOs interrupt the flow of action.

Consider:
Caster starts to cast spell, non-defensively

Now, what happens next?
Threatening enemies get AoO
Spell completes

Spells, per your definition, are instantaneous. Heck, some of them include that as duration: Instantaneous

Now, consider: Being knocked prone from a trip is NOT instantaneous. It takes an appreciable amount of time between being tripped and landing on the ground, prone. Believe me, I used to trip all the time in real life. Some of them were even from someone else tripping me. As my agility improved in real life, unlike the game, where this option does not exist, I was even able, in the time between being tripped and landing on my hands and knees, catch my balance, and stay on my feet.

Being tripped is not equal to being prone, there is a brief but noticeable span of time between being tripped and being prone. That is when the Greater Trip AoOs go off, in many posters' opinions, including mine.

[Trekkie90909]

Spells with a cast time of immediate do not provoke attacks of opportunity (see feather fall as an example). Spells which take a standard action or more do, and the AoO interrupt them because they take extra time to complete. Same idea as with standing up.

I hear your argument; this is not how the trip combat maneuver works. As soon as the trip is a success you are prone. This is RAW.

The flavor text for the action would be something like "The trip is not successful until the enemy has finished falling to the ground." (at which point they are instantaneously classified as prone). Something like catching your balance partway through would be a description for a failed trip maneuver; something in between might be used to describe coming close to the DC and either just barely passing or failing.

From a rules perspective that's irrelevant, but from a GMing/gameplay perspective it's important.

A successful trip maneuver (not the same as being tripped i.e. having a trip attempted against you) == prone. At this point the AoOs go off, because the trip has been confirmed successful. Prior to this the trip has not been successful so RAW you can't take the AoO yet.

[kinevon]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Spells with a cast time of immediate do not provoke attacks of opportunity (see feather fall as an example). Spells which take a standard action or more do, and the AoO interrupt them because they take extra time to complete. Same idea as with standing up.

I hear your argument; this is not how the trip combat maneuver works. As soon as the trip is a success you are prone. This is RAW.

The flavor text for the action would be something like "The trip is not successful until the enemy has finished falling to the ground." (at which point they are instantaneously classified as prone). Something like catching your balance partway through would be a description for a failed trip maneuver; something in between might be used to describe coming close to the DC and either just barely passing or failing.

From a rules perspective that's irrelevant, but from a GMing/gameplay perspective it's important.

A successful trip maneuver (not the same as being tripped i.e. having a trip attempted against you) == prone. At this point the AoOs go off, because the trip has been confirmed successful. Prior to this the trip has not been successful so RAW you can't take the AoO yet.

Last time: Successful Trip maneuver = successful trip maneuver.

Benefit: After the trip attempt succeeds, your target gains the prone condition.

So, successful trip gives you and your allies who threaten AoOs against the target of the trip.
After the AoO, which is provoked by the successful trip maneuver, the target then gains the prone condition.

Note that this is actually less beneficial for the PCs than your version. It is also closer to how the rules are written.

YMMV.

[Trekkie90909]

Quote:

Trip:

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

Bolded section is the definition of a successful trip maneuver.

Quote:

Greater Trip:

You can make free attacks on foes that you knock down.

Prerequisites: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, base attack bonus +6, Int 13.

Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on checks made to trip a foe. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Trip. Whenever you successfully trip an opponent, that opponent provokes attacks of opportunity.

Normal: Creatures do not provoke attacks of opportunity from being tripped.

Bolded the relevant section.

RAW it works like this:

->Attacker initiates Trip
->Determine success: True
->Defender is prone by definition of successful trip.
->Attacker's Greater Trip causes Defender to provoke an AoO due to successful trip.

You're interpretation is:

-> Attacker initiates Trip
-> Provokes AoO from Greater Trip
-> Trip is Success: Irrelevant (contradicts feat)
-> Enemy is Prone on success.

Clearly the interpretation is not what is written.