Wild Empathy and Vermin

[William Sinclair]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Wild Empathy doesn't affect Vermin. It requires a druid or a ranger to take an archetype such as Blight Druid (Druid) or Dungeon Rover (Ranger) to affect Vermin, in which case they can't use their Vermin Empathy with regular animals. Can someone reference a rule or some such for me. My players are VERY stubborn and hate opinion.

[Jeff Merola]

Point out that Vermin is a separate creature type from Animal, and that Wild Empathy only talks about Animals and Magical Beasts.

Also point out the existence of the Vermin Heart feat.

[Nefreet]

You needn't look further than Wild Empathy:

Wild Empathy (Ex) wrote:

A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.

The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.

To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.

A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check.

Nowhere in the ability does it reference Vermin. Only Animals and Magical Beasts.

[Nefreet]

Darn, Ninja'd by 6 seconds.

[William Sinclair]

I agree. But in the vermin description, it says that intelligent vermin can be considered animal or magical beasts, depending on abilities.

While I completely agree with everything you've both said, like I said, stubborn players in the party. Hate to see the GM struggling like this.

[Nefreet]

They need to show you that Wild Empathy can affect Vermin. Pathfinder is a permissive game. You need rules that state you can do something, not that you can't do something.

[blahpers]

A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually an animal or magical beast. A vermin, however, is always a vermin--never an animal.

Not that this should be an issue. The GM is the GM, and the GM's decision is final, with no appeal--unless the GM allows it, of course.

[William Sinclair]

Nefreet wrote:

They need to show you that Wild Empathy can affect Vermin. Pathfinder is a permissive game. You need rules that state you can do something, not that you can't do something.

Interesting concept.

[Victor Crow]

This came up during our group debate:

Vermin are mindless. "A vermin-like creature with an Intelligence score is usually either an animal or a magical beast, depending on its other abilities."

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/rules-for-monsters/creature-types#TOC-Verm in

[merpius]

I think the "usually" in that is to allow for vermin-like abberations, outsiders, etc as well as to allow for situations where a vermin gains intelligence through some outside means. Not to allow naturally intelligent vermin.

[Java Man]

And none of that changes the fact that wild empathy cannot be used on creatures with the vermin type. Vermin =\= animal or magical beast.

[merpius]

Right; you have to have Vermin Heart (or one of the referenced class abilities, or similar) to use wild empathy on vermin, regardless of their intelligence, and regardless of what keeps them the vermin type.