MAD casters

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

This isn't a full solution to the caster/martial divide, but I want to divide the spell list roughly into thirds, and assign each third a mental ability score (based on logic as much as balance needs allow), rather than have ability score determined by class. Bonus spells per day wouldn't exist, but spells per day would increase to compensate (assuming average optimization). Spellcasters can now either focus on the spells for one ability score or be MAD and somewhat weaker with spells.

Likely balance effects (without analyzing Paladins, Clerics, Rangers, Summoners, or Inquisitors)?

[DominusMegadeus]

Something like this for skills would probably also be a good idea, I think. Not much to say on the actual topic though, I don't have the brain power to go through the spell list this late at night.

Dotting to see the results, basically.

[Skerek]

I would suggest using two casting stats which can be utilized in two different ways:
a) Use one stat for DCs and another for Bonus Spells per day.
b) Use the lowest of the two stats for the DCs and Bonus Spells per day.

Splitting the spells into 3 different categories is one hell of a job and doesn't completely solve the issue, you'll probably find that players will just stick to one type of casting, so in effect all you have done is reduce the number of different ways an individual caster will destroy encounter

[Rub-Eta]

This wouldn't solve much in terms of making casters not so much stronger than martials.

For now you mostly need high casting stat for DCs and Bonus Spells. This would only lower the DCs of the spells by ~2 points, 10% more failure with debuffing spells and no change what so ever on many others.

And you can live well enough without the 1 to 3 bonus level 1 to 3 spells. Sure it would hurt more to lose that extra 4th,5th,6th and probably 7th spells. And unless you go above 15th level, 8th and 9th level spells won't matter anyways.

Even if it did lower the DC with much more and took away all bonus spells it wouldn't matter much. A Druid with a starting WIS 13 isn't a bad caster.

The problem many players have is about spells in general being a better alternative than much else. Ex. Invisibility instead of Stealth, Fly instead of Climb, etc.
What this fix is doing is attacking classes who can cast spells, not the spells them selves.

And it would only be viable on the SAD casters, and none of the already MAD casters. (SAD casters = Wizard, Sorcerer, Witch and Summoner. MAD casters = Cleric, Druid, Bard, Magus, Inquisitor and Oracle).

A cleric already needs WIS for casting spells, CHA for channeling (can be ignored), STR and CON for melee. That's 3 to 4 ability scores that needs to be up'd.
If you would need to up CHA and INT for spells, you would have to up 5 ability scores, or lose out on STR and/or CON. And if you don't have STR/CON you can't be viable in melee. And a Cleric who's not viable in melee is about the same as a wizard but with different spells. so you're playing a wizard, but you call your self Cleric

It's the same but even worse in the case of the 6/9 casters.

Personally I think limiting the spell lists would give more results.

[Da'ath]

You're going a different route than I expected, so out of curiosity, why not just make the classes MAD?

For example:
Wisdom-Based Casters: Wisdom for Bonus Spells, Charisma for DC
Intelligence-Based Casters: Intelligence for Bonus Spells, Charisma for DC
Spontaneous (Charisma-based) Wisdom for Divine & Intelligence for Arcane determines bonus spells, Charisma for DC

[Cyrad]

Rub-Eta wrote:

This wouldn't solve much in terms of making casters not so much stronger than martials.

For now you mostly need high casting stat for DCs and Bonus Spells. This would only lower the DCs of the spells by ~2 points, 10% more failure with debuffing spells and no change what so ever on many others.

And you can live well enough without the 1 to 3 bonus level 1 to 3 spells. Sure it would hurt more to lose that extra 4th,5th,6th and probably 7th spells. And unless you go above 15th level, 8th and 9th level spells won't matter anyways.

Personally I think limiting the spell lists would give more results.

This.

I see this will create more problems than it fixes, if it fixes anything at all. The biggest impact your suggestion will have is crippling gish classes and builds, which are already MAD.

I am, however, a big fan of dividing up the spell lists. I've been wanting to divide all spells between "divine" and "arcane" spell lists and then have every class use a subset of one of those lists with a few unique spells thrown in.

[The Human Diversion]

It's kind of sad, my first thought was, "Magnetic Anomaly Detection" casters??

[Kelsey MacAilbert]

Hmm. I'll have to do some more thinking on this. I didn't much consider the gish classes.

It might be better to just go through every single spell through the game and weed (though for reasons that include some issues outside this thread, such as me removing several concepts from the system), which may take forever, but it is Summer Break.