|
So if I have the Undead sub domain and make a melee touch attack against a willing ally now treating them as undead for effects that cause or heal damage based on positive and negative energy.
Now I activate channel smite and channel negative energy. I touch my ally...
Things get murky here.
I am attacking an actual living target. The smite does negative energy damage. The target then heals since the kiss triggers only for purposes of actually taking damage, not for meeting criteria of targetting.
Or
My target is considered an undead creature and channel smite has no listed effect for channeling negative energy and striking an undead.
In which case, what is the effect if there is any?
I believe the first ruling is raw and true to the spirit of the abilities in question. I just wanted to run it through the rules folks since I felt it was a rather clever and cool way to heal people but clever and cool tends to mean 'not possible' with many of my ideas. :D
|
damage is still damage. Positive energy, negative energy, or whatever.
Undead that deal negative energy typed damage on their melee attacks don't actually heal each other, for example.
In your example, your channel smite would basically do nothing (other than the attack's own normal damage). Thanks to the negative energy "reversi" you're basically hitting an undead with a negative energy smite. Channel smite only works if it's positive energy vs undead or negative energy vs living (which thanks to the Domain, he doesn't 'count as')
Now, that being said, the Undead Domain still is a fun thing to use. I have a PFS cleric that uses it. I've touched friendlies, and then channeled to harm the living. Don't need to exclude that guy! It's also a way to allow your negative energy cleric to heal with channels or spontaneous inflicts on party members.
|
|
Looking over the feat description, domain power and entry for undead I believe this is a solid case actually favoring what I want which is strange because that would be something different.
Channel Smite-If you channel negative energy (Check. For heal or harm I am channeling negative).
And hit a living creature (Check. My target is alive).
That creature takes additional damage equal to the damage dealt by my negative energy ability. (Targets life or lacktherof no longer matters. Effect is damage dealt).
Now the target takes damage equal to how much I would have done with a negative channel. The damage seems untyped but it requires a will save and references the negative energy. It is unlikely the damage is not negative energy. So...we're doing damage to a creature with negative energy from a channel.
Death's Kiss-
Touched creature is treated as undead for the purposes of effects that cause or heal damage based on positive and negative energy.
Are we dealing damage with negative energy? (Check.)
Are we dealing this damage to an undead target? (Check. Only at this point is the character considered undead--at the point of taking or receiving damage from positive or negative energy).
Undead- Cannot heal damage on its own.....Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures....
Are we using Negative energy? (Check).
Is the negative energy damage? (Check).
Is the negative energy affecting an undead creature? (Check).
But not all negative energy heals undead.
What kind of negative energy are we using? (Channeled).
Does channeled negative energy heal undead? (Yes).
Conclusion:
Channel Smite is not an effect, the damage it deals is. Death's Kiss applies only to effects, specifically to positive and negative energy that heals or causes damage to undead. Undead can heal from negative energy. We do channeled negative energy damage. Precedent has been set for channeled negative energy healing undead.
Is there some wiggle room around this? (Probably but this seems reasonable, in the spirit of the raw, and raw).
What kind of negative energy are we using? (Channeled).
Does channeled negative energy heal undead? (Yes).
Unfortunately, this is the part where you have it wrong.
If it were ANY OTHER EFFECT you'd be good. Hitting a zombie with Inflict Light Wounds heals it, for example.
However, Channeled Negative (or Positive) Energy does not automatically Harm (or Heal). You need to choose.
Channeling Negative to harm will not heal undead caught in the radius, nor will channeling Negative to heal undead harm the living.
Channel Smite is specifically the harm ability (everything in the description references DAMAGE, never anything like "The target is affected as if being hit by your Channel").
So hitting someone with Death's Kiss and then Channel Smite will not heal them, ever.
You can, however, Death's Kiss and then Channel Negative to heal undead and heal them that way.
|
|
I agree with Rynjin almost completely. Most notably, we're in agreement that Channel Smite with Negative energy can't heal undead or people touched with Death's Kiss, for that matter.
However I have a minor quibble with:
What kind of negative energy are we using?
If it were ANY OTHER EFFECT you'd be good. Hitting a zombie with Inflict Light Wounds heals it, for example.
Negative Energy Damage doesn't count as healing to undead in all cases except Channeled Energy... My quibble is that Negative Energy Damage isn't automatically converted to healing for undead.. it only happens if the effect specifically says so.
Negative Channeled Energy counts as healing to undead only because it specifically says so (and, to reiterate Rynjin's correct point: Only when specifically declared to heal undead).
Similarly, the Inflict line of spells only heal undead ONLY because they specifically say so. If a negative energy effect doesn't say it heals undead, it doesn't. Furthermore, the undead creature type rules render the target simply immune to (rather than healed by) a damaging negative energy effect that lacks a rule addressing what happens when it's applied to undead as Inflict spells do.
But to bring the greater point back into focus: Yes, the target of the Death's Kiss can be healed via negative energy by something that says it heals undead. I think there's universal agreement that Channel Smite, at least, cannot be used to heal. If the OP's logic were to hold, for example, then positive energy clerics would be healing living people by smiting them, as well.
Incorrect. From the type's traits:
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures.
Channel has a specific clause that prevents it from automatically healing them, for balance reasons (I believe the specific scenario used was an NPC Necromancer both pounding low level PCs with Channel and simultaneously healing his meat shields), but otherwise all negative energy heals undead (barring of course other exceptions).
I looked to make sure you weren't confusing something from 3.5, but the 3.5 Undead type has the same wording.
You'll notice that besides Channel And Lay On Hands/Touch Of Corruption there are no (that I know of) split negative or positive energy abilities. They all heal X damage or deal Y damage, not heal X damage if you choose this and attack the right target, and deal Y damage ditto.
So if he were to hit them with Death's Kiss and then Channel Smite any of a number of other abilities (Lich's Touch, for example) he'd be set.
|
|
I was under the impression that undead healed from negative energy as a default rule with specific exceptions. Reading the entry it seems that this is not the general rule but a case by case bases entirely oriented on what the description of the negative energy based ability says. I say this because I did not find any rules for negative energy in and of itself nor did I find any expanded information on undead or any clarifications pertaining to their interaction with negative energy beyond what was in their description. In fact, based solely on that small bit of what feels like incomplete information, it would seem that undead have no particular special connection to negative energy at all. It just so happens that many spells and abilities that say they heal undead use negative energy. With this in mind I guess that mentioning that undead can be healed by the energy type in their subtype block really is just preventing people from questioning why it heals undead and hurts living and clears away potential silly rules issues that may stem from that, if any.
Undead are not even necessarily animated by negative energy. It's just magical energy. Their 'connection' or relationship to the stuff appears to be nothing but fluff. They could just as easily have fire spells that say they heal undead as inflict spells. The stat block for undead subtype should read like the construct block. There is no special relationship that constructs have with any particular energy. You just reference the spells that say they can heal them or the specific construct that has a clause for healing. When I made my case it was under the (incorrehas assumption that there was a relationship between undead and negative energy when as far as I can see, there actually isn't.
Am I missing some entry or ruling?
|
|
Incorrect. From the type's traits:
Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures.
The can is bolded for my later emphasis.
We're agreeing about the end result. The WHY is what we're disagreeing about.
You're saying, if I understand you correctly, that there are no negative energy (direct hit point) damage effects that do not call out what to do when undead is hit by them.
I'm saying, that 2nd instance of the word "can" makes all the difference from "will". There are POTENTIALLY some negative energy damage sources (that deal direct hit point damage) that may NOT heal undead even when used against undead. The rules team is reserving that option rather than making a blanket rule that negative energy ALWAYS heals undead.
Shadows, for example, have melee touch attacks that are typed as negative energy that deal strength damage. Undead are called out as being immune to attribute damage. So shadows attacking each other is just a MIT slap fight. Hypothetically, however, if they did hit point damage instead of strength damage, what would happen? Would they heal each other because negative energy is always healing energy, or would they damage each other because of the lack of a caveat about undead being healed by this attack?
They'd heal each other. Much like a Wraith or a Lich can heal itself. Though very slowly in the Wraith's case.
On the flipside, they have no choice but be harmed by Positive energy.
There's actually a FAQ that indirectly clarifies this. Lemme find it.
The intent of this ability is that the creature is healed by negative energy (like an undead) and harmed by positive energy (like an undead); this is automatic and has nothing to do with the intent of the target or the energy-wielder. However, as written, the ability is a bit confusing because of the phrase “reacts to,” which doesn’t have a clear definition. This ability will be changed in the next printing of Bestiary 2.
Update: Page 299—In the description of the Negative Energy Affinity ability, replace the current entry with the following:
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive, but is treated as undead for all effects that affect undead differently than living creatures, such as cure spells and channeled energy. Format: negative energy affinity; Location: Defensive Abilities.
|
|
They'd heal each other. Much like a Wraith or a Lich can heal itself. Though very slowly in the Wraith's case.
On the flipside, they have no choice but be harmed by Positive energy.
There's actually a FAQ that indirectly clarifies this. Lemme find it.
The intent of this ability is that the creature is healed by negative energy (like an undead) and harmed by positive energy (like an undead); this is automatic and has nothing to do with the intent of the target or the energy-wielder. However, as written, the ability is a bit confusing because of the phrase “reacts to,” which doesn’t have a clear definition. This ability will be changed in the next printing of Bestiary 2.
Update: Page 299—In the description of the Negative Energy Affinity ability, replace the current entry with the following:
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive, but is treated as undead for all effects that affect undead differently than living creatures, such as cure spells and channeled energy. Format: negative energy affinity; Location: Defensive Abilities.
Again, the Lich can heal itself with its negative energy melee attack.. is that because the ability explicitly says so, or because undead is always healed by negative energy?
To use game mechanics logic, why bother saying it can heal itself if it's always a given that negative heals undead? If it lacked that one piece of verbage, I'd say that without that batch of words, the Lich could NOT heal itself by attacking itself.
Furthermore, I'd go so far as to say that since the Lich's attack rules are worded thusly:
Damage: A lich's touch attack uses negative energy to deal 1d8 points of damage to living creatures + 1 point of damage per 2 Hit Dice possessed by the lich. As negative energy, this damage can be used to heal undead creatures. A lich can take a full-round action to infuse itself with this energy, healing damage as if it had used its touch attack against itself.
There's that can again. The lich, by use of the word "can", clearly has the option to refrain from healing another undead creature when using the attack.
Honestly, you might be right about the Intent. But RAW, can be is not at all the same thing as must be. Since we agree about the scenario in the OP, I'm gonna start a new thread about negative energy vs undead in general.
|
|
They'd heal each other. Much like a Wraith or a Lich can heal itself. Though very slowly in the Wraith's case.
On the flipside, they have no choice but be harmed by Positive energy.
There's actually a FAQ that indirectly clarifies this. Lemme find it.
The intent of this ability is that the creature is healed by negative energy (like an undead) and harmed by positive energy (like an undead); this is automatic and has nothing to do with the intent of the target or the energy-wielder. However, as written, the ability is a bit confusing because of the phrase “reacts to,” which doesn’t have a clear definition. This ability will be changed in the next printing of Bestiary 2.
Update: Page 299—In the description of the Negative Energy Affinity ability, replace the current entry with the following:
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive, but is treated as undead for all effects that affect undead differently than living creatures, such as cure spells and channeled energy. Format: negative energy affinity; Location: Defensive Abilities.
This implies that negative energy that affects an undead will automatically heal it, with no decision being made by the undead itself, as though it is an inherent property of the creature and energy type.
If that is the case, when selective channel type (negative) and affected targets (living) why would the negative energy not heal a death's kissed target? At this point, they are being hit with the channel, regardless of their creature type or the intent of the channel. The energy is coming and it is trying to affect them. In this case the energy is represented as damage. The undead either heals because the energy affecting it is negative and that is an inherent property of negative energy and its reaction to undead, or it damages the undead because undead don't automatically heal from negative energy damage or it does nothing to undead for the same reasons. Undead are not listed as immune to negative energy so the damage dealing options remains a possibility.
The intent of the channel and affected entities is relevant at the point where the decision to channel is made. Once the channel is in effect, are you saying that the intent of the channel is carried with it? Or is it just a raw blast of negative energy that can be done to either harm living or heal undead? If undead automatically healed from the stuff, it wouldn't matter. But if they don't then I think you are correct that you cannot channel smite a deaths kissed target.
The fact that I found a way to hit them with negative energy they normally wouldn't be affected by shouldn't preclude the fact that they are now being affected by negative energy-for better or worse.
I still say that the channel would skip over them since they are being affected as undead, and undead wouldn't be targeted when you target living. I say this would apply to both positive and negative. Also under the undead description it says, "Undead are healed by negative energy and harmed by positive energy." That seems to be an always thing there.
|
|
The channel cannot skip them since at the time I channel, they are a valid target. The only point where the channel has to 'consider' operating differently is once it is dealing damage to the living creature as now that creature is saying 'hey, I am undead, silly'. Up until that point, the channel has effectively targeted them, ignoring any undead that may be present and is now murdering the far from innocent living. But when that energy wave reaches you a process happens....or doesn't and that is what we need to figure out. The wording in Negative energy affinity implies that undead automatically heal from negative energy that is applied to them by default. All other information I have found suggests that that may not always be the case.
Think of it this way you hate being tickled and only laugh when tickled. You are alive. You have a shield/program that reacts when you are tickled and it makes you not laugh.
I send a wave of tickly fingers out in all directions. The fingers are only going to tickle living targets (like you). The fingers reach you and begin tickling you. Your shield/program snaps on and prevents you from laughing. You are, however, still being tickled. You just don't think it's particularly funny.
The same thing is happening with this situation: you are being hit with the negative energy. Once it hits you you have an effect triggering to make you behave differently in response to it. Now, and only now- while the negative energy is actually washing over you and affecting you, does your response change. The question is simply what is the appropriate response and at this point in the process, it is Dependant on how undead react to being tickled. I mean, negative energy.
Channel smite ensures the negative energy reaches the living creature hit.
You are considered living intil the point where the negative energy affects you. So you get channeled in all instances. Never skipped.
Right you respond differently to it. You respond the same way an undead would, by not being effected by it. The effect would be cancelled because you're treated as undead. Reason I say this is that a harm living things doesn't effect undead, so the person being effected wouldn't be harmed. It's also saying that when you heal undead you'd be healed. You target the entire area and have a goal. So it heals like undead and is ignored like undead. So your channel smite would have the same effect it would have if you were targeting an undead.
I don't actually see how you're reading that they would be treated by it differently then as an undead.
I see it say for normal channel, all undead in the area heal / all living in the area get harmed. that's the effect of that energy. so you act like an undead to that area of energy. And condensing the energy into the smite doesn't change that.
Also note the same wording between the half-elf elf blood,
Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race.
and death's kiss: Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy.
Half-elves/touched creature
count as/ treated as
elf and human/undead
for
effects related to race/ effects of positive and negative energy to heal or harm.
Same wording there, and we know that it has half-elves count as full human and full elf. So death's kiss has them count as undead. Which means they ignore harming negative and heal from healing negative. are harmed by harming positive, and ignore healing positive. Just like an undead
|
|
The wording on deaths kiss makes it clear that it only triggers when you are affected by negative energy. Until the point that the negative energy is affecting you (in this case taking damage from the channel) deaths kiss does not factor in. It never triggers if you are never affected.
It only works for effects....not abilities or spells that target or include or exclude. It only cares about the effect and not the source. There for, at the time of channeling, you are a living creature.
A creature effected by deaths kiss can be targeted by spells that only target living creatures. That's not an effect of the spell but a requirement. If a spell says to only target lawful good, living creature and imbue them with holy might while dealing 10d6 fire damage to all undead in a 20' burst starting from the living target, if that target was deaths kissed and the spell is not doing positive energy damage, the target only receives benefits.
If the spell instead said that it dealt 10d6 positive energy damage to all undead in the area, then the moment that the target was under the effect of the positive energy portion of the spell does death's kiss become relevant and activates, making them take damage as if they were undead (but they still count as a living creatures in every other ways including being targeted by the spell in the first place).
Please re-read deaths kiss a couple of times. I had to. It only triggers when damage is being dealt or healed by positive or negative energy. Once you are subjected to the damage, it applies to you as if you were an undead. It does nothing to stop you from being caught in a channel that hurts living creatures. You're alive, you take damage, deaths kiss activates.
They'd heal each other. Much like a Wraith or a Lich can heal itself. Though very slowly in the Wraith's case.
On the flipside, they have no choice but be harmed by Positive energy.
There's actually a FAQ that indirectly clarifies this. Lemme find it.
The intent of this ability is that the creature is healed by negative energy (like an undead) and harmed by positive energy (like an undead); this is automatic and has nothing to do with the intent of the target or the energy-wielder. However, as written, the ability is a bit confusing because of the phrase “reacts to,” which doesn’t have a clear definition. This ability will be changed in the next printing of Bestiary 2.
Update: Page 299—In the description of the Negative Energy Affinity ability, replace the current entry with the following:
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive, but is treated as undead for all effects that affect undead differently than living creatures, such as cure spells and channeled energy. Format: negative energy affinity; Location: Defensive Abilities.
This implies that negative energy that affects an undead will automatically heal it, with no decision being made by the undead itself, as though it is an inherent property of the creature and energy type.
If that is the case, when selective channel type (negative) and affected targets (living) why would the negative energy not heal a death's kissed target?
Simply put, because Channel has a specific clause that overrides the general rule.
You choose to either harm living or heal undead. It does not do both, and Channel Smite is specifically the damaging portion, never the healing portion.
The target of your Death's Kiss is treated as Undead. They are no longer affected by harm living, which is what you're using.
If you somehow had a way to harm undead, however (does Versatile Channel work with Channel Smite), it WOULD hurt them.
|
|
Death's kiss does stop you from being a qualifying target for a negative channel energy for harm or a negative powered channel smite. Death's kiss only triggers once you have been affected by those abilities, not by their targetting or activation.
The wording on death's kiss is very specific calling out that you must be affected and that it has to be by damage or healing from positive or negative energy.
Channeling a negative smite to harm the living does not activate the kiss.
Activating a negative energy channel to harm the living does not activate the kiss.
Hitting a living or undead target with negative channel smite does not activate the kiss.
Successfully dealing damage or healing it with positive or negative energy triggers the kiss. The source is irrelevant to the trigger so long as the conditions are met (positive/negative energy healing or damage).
So now that you are taking damage or being healed by whichever energy, you are considered undead.
The fact that the channel targets or affects specific kinds of entities was addressed way before we reached this point. Channel smite is pretty clear here that everything is decided before you even swing. Once you land the hit the channel activates, effectively checking that your target is legitimate. Death's kiss does not pre-empt this and change your type first. It waits until you're taking damage (from the proper energy type) to do anything. The smite sees you as a valid target for the channel and deals the damage to you. This is the only point where death's kiss can activate so it does.
The question then is how does the damage interact with you. It doesn't just stop. I'm arguing that as an undead interacting with negative energy damage you either heal (generally assumed how it works until you check the rules) or it does 0 damage or you actually take damage.
Barring the entry for negative energy affinity stating undead do heal from negative energy normally, I would argue that you ignore negative energy damage as an undead (and aren't healed by it automatically) or that you take damage from the effect since there is nothing saying you don't or that you automatically heal from the stuff. Up thread I agreed with your ruling because the negative energy affinity FAQ hadn't seemed relevant since a legitimate undead entry should cover all critical things undead.
So if the affinity FAQ is correct and undead heal from negative energy and I have established that deaths kiss can allow you to be subjected to negative channels it implies that even if that energy wasn't intended to heal an undead (because of targetting or some such) it doesn't stop them from being affected by/exposed to the energy. At which point we have to see how they react to it.
Remember, death's kiss doesn't change your type immediately. It can't look into the future nor does it create an undead layer or barrier. It only reacts after the fact. You have to take damage of the proper type before it changes what creature type you count as to see how you respond to it. This is why you can channel to harm living and the kissed target can get caught in the channel. They are treated as living until they are dealing with the results, consequences or effects of the channel. And at some point after being subjected to the damage but before making a save to halve it, they are considered undead. The channel does not retroactively adjust itself, changing who is affected.
Dark Immortal, you're wrong that "Death's kiss only triggers once you have been affected by those abilities, not by their targetting or activation.
The wording on death's kiss is very specific calling out that you must be affected and that it has to be by damage or healing from positive or negative energy."
Death's kiss effectively changes your type before the channel hit's them. If you channel energy to heal undead, you'd heal them, since they count as undead for the healing of undead with negative energy.
You channel negative to heal all undead in the area. That is a heal based on negative energy. And being treated as undead means you get healed by that.
You channel positive energy to heal living in the area. This heal is heal based on positive energy. The effect of this channel ignores you because you're treated as undead.
Also the negative energy affinity's wording is very much the same as death's kiss.
Negative Energy Affinity (Ex) The creature is alive, but is treated as undead for all effects that affect undead differently than living creatures, such as cure spells and channeled energy. Format: negative energy affinity; Location: Defensive Abilities.
the creature is treated as undead for the effects that ...
So if you channel to heal undead someone with Negative energy affinity would be healed. it's an affect that treats undead differently they get healed by that kind of channel, so you'd be healed by that channel. Now since this is a heal based on negative energy, it would have the same effect on someone under death's kiss.
|
|
Maybe it is because I play magic the gathering but this looks like a timing rule.
When you decide to channel no effect has taken place. When you choose which kind of channel and who will be affected, no effect has taken place.
In either case death's kiss has not been relevant because it requires an effect to happen before it can function.
When you deal damage or heal creatures with a channel energy, an effect happens. Death's Kiss has to activate now. The damage doesn't go away, though. It's still there.
All decisions about the channel have been made before this point and they do not now change their behavior. They have no clause stating they react to a reaction to them or retroactively adjust targets based on new information. You don't get to reselect subjects of the channel because one target is no longer a valid subject of the channel. They were a valid subject at the point where the decision to include them in the channel was made. Death's kiss has no effect on who you choose to include or not and no effect on who is or is not a valid target. It doesn't even apply to targetting. It doesn't activate in response to targetting. Targetting and inclusion/exclusion isn't an effect of a spell or ability by default.
I am not saying that an undead is healed in this situation. What I am saying is that they are subjected to a negative energy channel that was designed to hurt living but is now hitting someone who reacts by being treated as undead. What happens after that is my issue.
I have not read negative energy affinity enough to knowledgeably comment on it.
No, that's where you keep confusing yourself.
Death's Kiss doesn't "activate" it just is. Once you hit them with it, they are treated as undead for the purposes of Positive and Negative Energy. That is all.
If you damage them with Negative Energy, they are healed instead.
With the singular exception of Channel Energy, which must be set to Heal or Harm. If you use Channel Negative to Harm, it will have no effect.
If you use Channel Negative to Heal, it will Heal.
If you use Channel Positive to Harm, it will Harm.
If you use Channel Positive to Heal, it will have no effect.
It really is as simple as that. There is no "timing". It "activates" as soon as you hit them with Death's Kiss, and Channel's type is chosen WHEN YOU USE IT, and does not change based on the target it's hitting.
|
|
So it sounds lime you are saying that the subject of the channel is still living but just suffers no effects because the negative channel is not designed to affect undead. They're caught in the channel but don't heal or receive any damage from it because the channel was set to harm the living and right now, the damage cannot affect an undead target?
Or are you saying that deaths kiss just changes you to undead and that if the intent or targetting of a spell doesn't target undead, you are not affected by it by default of not being a viable target for the effect?e
I quite thoroughly disagree with the latter because, from what I understand of the pathfinder spell/SLA/su system, this would not be the case regarding deaths kiss and in regards to when the kiss is 'active' it would not make sense in regards to the rules for such abilities either.
I am not discounting that the subject of deaths kiss may not suffer any effect or may take damage, even. I just think that the way we are arriving at that possibility needs to be better understood. I have made my case but if I were forced to be more specific, yes, the kiss is always active but the 'treat as undead tag' is only seen when you must deal with an actual effect.
What is the effect? Is it the damage? Is it something else?
My argument is that the effect is and must be the damage. I then contend that you are treated as undead for the purposes of that effect: Negative energy damage.
If the effect is not damage what is it? Is it a coupled damage + being living? I argue that living targets and choice to channel negative are parameters, not effects. I am also stating that I think there is a difference between the two until proven otherwise (I could be wrong, you know?). I believe the effect is that damage is dealt to whoever was selected by the parameters (our kissed person) and now that they are receiving the effect, damage, the kiss changes how they are treated by it.
I cannot tell if we are both arguing the same thing or not. Again, I am just trying to clarify what is happening and when and how I am coming to my view. This is before any decision about what actually happens if/when the subject takes damage, if ever. I am just pointing out that they are subjected to a channeled negative energy to harm the living but then being treated as undead when the damage comes.
I honestly can't tell what you're trying to ASK.
You've got everything twisted up and are making it more complicated than it really should be.
It's as simple as this:
Target is affected by Death's Kiss, and then is treated as undead for Positive/Negative Energy effects. Period. It reall is taht simple.
Negative Energy affects them as an undead. Positive energy affects them as an undead.
There is no "active" or "inactive". Death's Kiss is either affecting you, or it is not affecting you. There is no middle ground where you are under its effects but it's not "active".
If you are hot with it, you are treated as undead. If your buddy Channels to Harm Undead, well tough luck sugar, you count as undead. It doesn't matter that his intent was not to hurt you specifically, the ability simply activates as it was made to activate.
I am just pointing out that they are subjected to a channeled negative energy to harm the living but then being treated as undead when the damage comes.
Yes. Which results in no effect. Channel Negative to Harm Living does not affect undead. You are treated as undead. Therefore, there is no effect.
The way the ability works is just a series of if/then statements. If it affects undead one way, then it affects you that way. f it affects living but not undead, then it has no effect.
Your initial question regarded Channel Smite using Negative Energy specifically. The target would be unaffected in that case.
Why? Channel Smite is the Harm portion of any Channel. So, Channel Smite with Negative energy would not affect undead. You are counted as an undead. It has no effect.
So it sounds lime you are saying that the subject of the channel is still living but just suffers no effects because the negative channel is not designed to affect undead. They're caught in the channel but don't heal or receive any damage from it because the channel was set to harm the living and right now, the damage cannot affect an undead target?
What you're saying here is correct. This is agreeing with Rynjin on everything.
|
|
Thanks Chess. I wasn't sure how to rephrase in a better way to be more clear. I disagree that is how channel works but admit I could be wrong on that. My argument was that who gets hit is determined at the time you decide to channel but that the effects are not tied to the parameter of 'who'.
Once I select you as a valid subject your validity as a subject is no longer relevant to the effect unless it is worded that way. If caught in the burst of a channeled blast (because you qualified when the channeling was initiated) then the energy affecting you follows universal rules. Otherwise we have discriminating negative energy damage that does not interact with those it affects consistently. I argue (and we seem to agree) that the discrimination took place before anyone had a chance to be affected. So now we have negative energy damage interacting with an undead.
If someone were arguing that the parameters and effects were the same thing or coupled, I would disagree (but I am open to understanding how they might be coupled or why). But from what I can tell, nobody is making this argument (as most spells and the like do not work this way afaik).