RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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A bit of common sense will tell you that both those things are just different ways of doing the same thing
Whereas a bit of reading comprehension will tell you that "add this on top of your normal bonus" and "add this instead of your normal bonus" are two very different things, not different ways of doing the same thing.
I'm not sure of the final answer to the OP's question, but you should at least read the question before declaring it's a matter of "common sense", lest you just embarass yourself.
As Jiggy and Bigdaddyjug said, you aren't "adding wisdom twice." You are adding wisdom in addition to your base ability, charisma, except that charisma also happens to be swapped out for wisdom.
By the rules they do stack, and this topic has come up before.
I do vaguely recall that in some other cases it's been ruled that you can't add abilities to themselves though. It might have been in the context of adding Cha to Dex, while also replacing Dex with Cha, for some oracle or something.
It's a legitimate question.
I am sure they were not added in the same manner either so this would not apply to those rulings, not that I can recall any, but if you have any quotes would be nice.
Fury's Fall "adds your Dexterity bonus to CMB", and CMB is normally STR+BAB+Size, yet plenty of people argue that it won't stack with Agile Maneuvers, which replaces STR with DEX for CMB, citing the nonexistent "double tap" rules.
I knew about that one also, but I thought Asc(cant not spell your name) was claiming to have seen an official ruling on something.
If the rule against double dipping is being derived from the posts by James Jacobs, then it should be noted that he specifically made an exception for the case of a paladin/lore oracle with Sidestep Secret in the case of Reflex saves.
Off Topic: As someone who made this mistake in the past, I'll inform the OP that the Devs have stated that they do not like to see the words "FAQ Request" in the thread title. I think even "FAQ" is supposed to be avoided.
On topic: There are a few instances where it's possible to double stack ability modifiers - some require a few abilities added together (Fury's Fall + Agile Maneuvers, Guileful Lore + Charm of Wisdom, etc.), and at least one (the Mindchemist archetype's Perfect Recall ability) that is a single ability.
Were it my game, I'd allow skill bonuses to be stacked, using the Mindchemist's Perfect Recall ability as a basis for not breaking RAI. I would not, however, allow someone to add dexterity twice to their CMB through Fury's Fall and Agile Maneuvers, as there is no precedent for this ability on an attack roll. Skill checks and attack rolls are VASTLY different things - there is a favored class bonuses (for Catfolk Bards) which gives +1/2 per level to all knowledge skill checks, but there are not any favored class bonuses (same ability power) which give anywhere near such a boost to attack rolls.
That said, I'll hit the FAQ button on this one. Though I hope the FAQ answer isn't a single word and gives a bit of explanation as to the rationale/design intent of the ruling.
I would not, however, allow someone to add dexterity twice to their CMB through Fury's Fall and Agile Maneuvers, as there is no precedent for this ability on an attack roll.
Then you ought to be banning Fury's Fall, not the combination. There's no precedent for adding a second stat into your CMB, but there is precedent for using a different stat in the first place (Weapon Finesse).
As Jiggy said:
"add this on top of your normal bonus" and "add this instead of your normal bonus" are two very different things, not different ways of doing the same thing.
That said, you are free to do whatever you want in your home game, whether or not your reasoning makes sense to the rest of us.
Alrighty then, so we've got a FAQ Response out on this one now that seems to be trying to answer this question! and it appears to still be as clear as mud.
Thoughts?
Wow.
Just....Wow.
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Alrighty then, so we've got a FAQ Response out on this one now that seems to be trying to answer this question! and it appears to still be as clear as mud.
Thoughts?
Seems fairly clear to me unless I'm missing something. Guileful Lore adds Wis mod. Charm of Wisdom also adds Wis mod. Per the FAQ you cannot add Wis mod more than once so they will not stack. Seems pretty straightforward.
Before the thread descended into pointless bickering about semantics and b!&~%ing about the FAQ, I started compiling examples of double dipping that the FAQ addressed. Including the specific issue of the Inquisitor Archetypes and Inquisitions that definitely don't work together now. Mark confirmed that that was as intended.
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Basically, you have bonuses with multiple sources now, that are determined by the type of bonus it provides.
So, "a bonus equal to your <relevant modifier>" is a meaningless statement, and all should be "add your <relevant modifier>".
This also means untyped bonuses sometimes do stack, and sometimes they don't, depending on whether or not, one of the multiple sources of each bonus, are the same source.