Is there a Pathfinder feat which will allow a character to get stealth as a class skill if they otherwise don't have it? I'm making a gnome sorcerer and I'd like to get that as a class skill without multi-classing.
No feat AFAIK, but you can take "skill focus: stealth" for an equal and better bonus (when you have enough ranks).
Just so we're clear, you do know you can ut ranks in Stealth (and everything else) even when it is not a class skill, right?
So the only difference between your sorcerer putting ranks in Stealth and a rogue putting ranks in Stealth is that the rogue gets a +3 bonus for the Class Skill. That's only a 15% difference between your sorcerer and a rogue.
And if you factor in that the rogue probably has a chain shirt, then he's taking -1 or even -2 as an Armor Check Penalty, which narrows the gap a little more.
So, is it really so bad for a clumsy bumbling sorcerer to be a mere 5-10% worse at Stealth than a sneaky rogue?
I mention this for two reasons.
1. Maybe you didn't know it. Maybe you even thought you couldn't put ranks in a non-class skill. So I wanted to get that out of the way, just in case.
2. No matter how important it is to be sneaky, IMO there are at least a dozen feats that are way way more important for a sorcerer. A feat that lets you improve the save DCs of your spells, a feat that lets you bypass enemies SR, a feat that greatly helps you cast while threatened, even feats that improve your AC or Initiative. Not to mention Metamagic feats and even Item Creation feats. All of which I would be a million times more likely to take than a feat that makes me 15% sneakier. Of course, you may feel differently, but it's my opinion that burning a feat to gain 15% on Stealth checks is way down the list of sorcerer priorities - unless maybe you're playing some kind of sneaky-ninja-spy campaign, in which case, you're probably better off dual-classing in rogue anyway, and maybe heading for Arcane Trickster.
Making a skill a class skill is generally the province of traits, as noted. For Stealth, you could take either Conspiracy Hunter (Council of Thieves Player's Guide) or Wisdom in the Flesh (Legacy of Fire Player's Guide). Obviously, this would be subject to GM approval. As the latter is not a free product, note that the trait itself is Open Game Content. You can find the mechanics for it in the character sheet linked in my profile and also over at the d20PFSRD site.
Making a skill a class skill is generally the province of traits, as noted. For Stealth, you could take either Conspiracy Hunter (Council of Thieves Player's Guide) or Wisdom in the Flesh (Legacy of Fire Player's Guide). Obviously, this would be subject to GM approval.
I'll have to ask him about traits, but those sound to be right up the appropriate alley. Thanks.
Making a skill a class skill is generally the province of traits, as noted. For Stealth, you could take either Conspiracy Hunter (Council of Thieves Player's Guide) or Wisdom in the Flesh (Legacy of Fire Player's Guide). Obviously, this would be subject to GM approval.I'll have to ask him about traits, but those sound to be right up the appropriate alley. Thanks.
You're welcome! I just added some links and a bit on the OGC you can find in case he doesn't want to but the LoF Player's Guide for just one trait.
Just so we're clear, you do know you can ut ranks in Stealth (and everything else) even when it is not a class skill, right?
So the only difference between your sorcerer putting ranks in Stealth and a rogue putting ranks in Stealth is that the rogue gets a +3 bonus for the Class Skill. That's only a 15% difference between your sorcerer and a rogue.
And if you factor in that the rogue probably has a chain shirt, then he's taking -1 or even -2 as an Armor Check Penalty, which narrows the gap a little more.
So, is it really so bad for a clumsy bumbling sorcerer to be a mere 5-10% worse at Stealth than a sneaky rogue?
I am well aware of how the rules work. I am also aware that the numbers as you cite them are not quite the whole story (lies, damned lies, and statistics). In cases like this where a small marginal edge can have a huge effect, quoting off things like a "15% edge" isn't really that close to true. Those extra 3 points could be the difference between you being completely undetectable or not.
I mention this for two reasons.
1. Maybe you didn't know it. Maybe you even thought you couldn't put ranks in a non-class skill. So I wanted to get that out of the way, just in case.
2. No matter how important it is to be sneaky, IMO there are at least a dozen feats that are way way more important for a sorcerer. A feat that lets you improve the save DCs of your spells, a feat that lets you bypass enemies SR, a feat that greatly helps you cast while threatened, even feats that improve your AC or Initiative. Not to mention Metamagic feats and even Item Creation feats. All of which I would be a million times more likely to take than a feat that makes me 15% sneakier. Of course, you may feel differently, but it's my opinion that burning a feat to gain 15% on Stealth checks is way down the list of sorcerer priorities - unless maybe you're playing some kind of sneaky-ninja-spy campaign, in which case, you're probably better off dual-classing in rogue anyway, and maybe heading for Arcane Trickster.
Given that we are talking about Pathfinder, and not 3.5, I expect to have enough feats that I could have spared one at some point on a +3 to my stealth. I imagine skill focus is effectively just the same though (though both could be worth it). The character will be focused on illusions and the ability to remain hidden while casting them is a very valuable pursuit.
I am well aware of how the rules work. I am also aware that the numbers as you cite them are not quite the whole story (lies, damned lies, and statistics). In cases like this where a small marginal edge can have a huge effect, quoting off things like a "15% edge" isn't really that close to true. Those extra 3 points could be the difference between you being completely undetectable or not.
Well, yes. But the point is that, assuming DCs that you don't automatically succeed or fail, 15% of the time you'll succeed when you would have failed before. I think it's reasonable to call "when you're trying to be sneaky, you'll succeed 15% of the time when you otherwise wouldn't have", "15% sneakier".
It's semantics regardless.The only reason that you'd care about actually having a "stealth as a class skill" feat as opposed to just using Skill Focus, is if you'd want to take both.
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Making a skill a class skill is generally the province of traits, as noted. For Stealth, you could take either Conspiracy Hunter (Council of Thieves Player's Guide) or Wisdom in the Flesh (Legacy of Fire Player's Guide). Obviously, this would be subject to GM approval.I'll have to ask him about traits, but those sound to be right up the appropriate alley. Thanks.
FWIW even if he doesn't normally allow traits at character creation there is a feat "extra traits" which gives you 2 traits. Maybe he will allow you to take the feat to get 2 traits (reactionary for +2 to init is always a safe bet for a second trait)
I am well aware of how the rules work. I am also aware that the numbers as you cite them are not quite the whole story (lies, damned lies, and statistics). In cases like this where a small marginal edge can have a huge effect, quoting off things like a "15% edge" isn't really that close to true. Those extra 3 points could be the difference between you being completely undetectable or not.
Well, yes. But the point is that, assuming DCs that you don't automatically succeed or fail, 15% of the time you'll succeed when you would have failed before. I think it's reasonable to call "when you're trying to be sneaky, you'll succeed 15% of the time when you otherwise wouldn't have", "15% sneakier".
It's semantics regardless.The only reason that you'd care about actually having a "stealth as a class skill" feat as opposed to just using Skill Focus, is if you'd want to take both.
I didn't want to get into the math, but I will since you don't see my point.
Say I'm trying to hide while casting my illusion.
I'm 1st level and have a 14 dex, am small, and have 1 rank in hide.
With stealth as a class skill, I have a +9. Without it I have a +6. Say the opponent has +0 perception. In the case of the class skill (assuming I get a 10 on my roll), the observer needs a 20 to see me. In the latter case he needs a 17, 18, 19, 20. This means he is four times as likely to see me (which is not a 15% difference in any practical terms). If I roll a 11 or better, there is simply no way I can be seen. Thus 50% of the time, I am undetectable (no crits on skills in Pathfinder). In the no class skill he needs to roll a 14 or better which is only 35% of the time. The class skilled case is impervious 42% more often.
Those 5% increments on a d20 don't tell the whole story by any means.
The only reason that you'd care about actually having a "stealth as a class skill" feat as opposed to just using Skill Focus, is if you'd want to take both.
This is true, I would probably go with both. Much like with armor class, if you are trying to use a trick like stealth as a defensive measure, you have to go whole hog or it's not really worth it.