Really new to pathfinder and I'm going to start joining the society. My problem though is I have no experience past level 1 (only played 1 game)and so I don't know what I have to be prepared for down the road. Hoping you guys can use your wealth of game lore to make this guy stay useful and alive.
Race: Aasimar, Angel-Blooded
Abilities: Str: 18 (16+2), Dex: 10, Con: 12, Int: 10, Wis: 8, Cha: 18 (16+2)
Class: Oracle
Mystery: Ancestor, Dual-cursed
Curse: Haunted, Tongues (advancing)
Favored Class Bonus: ?
Skills: Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion and 2 more...
Traits: Fate's Favored (Stack with Divine Favor is good right?), Then maybe a will save increase for second trait? Or add UMD as a skill?
1 feat: Extra Revelation (pick up misfortune and I think ancestral weapon as my revelations)
3 feat: No idea for the rest
So a lot of blanks but here was my thought process. 3/4 BAB means this guy is going to be a secondary melee so my usefulness to the group is really going to be through putting out some OK damage and buffing the others. I figure using a longspear to keep some distance from the enemy and take dual-cursed so I can help out the others by re-rolling enemy crits.
These are my concerns with the character and where I need some advice:
1. Stats. Is the 18 Cha worth it for a melee oracle? Because I could go Str: 18 (16+2), Dex: 12, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 8, Cha: 16 (14+2) which seems like a stronger array.
2. Hitting the enemy. Being dual-cursed means I lose Heroism. That SUCKS. Is it worth it? Or does the Ancestor oracle really need heroism to melee?
3. Staying alive. I got a d8 hit die, no dex and no heavy armor. How do I get the AC to survive? Take a feat for Plate?
4. Favored Class Bonus. Where would you put this? I'm kind of looking at storm of souls. I know it's usually a bad blast but at Level 6 I'm looking at 4d8 dmg to normals and 9d8 dmg to undead. At 8 that turns into 12 d8 dmg to undead. Worth it as a big anti-undead spell?
5. FEATS! I have no idea. I saw the math somewhere in this forum showing that power attack isn't worth it for a 3/4 BAB class so there goes my main stay. Maybe the eldritch heritage line?
Everything is on the table for change except for the Ancestor Mystery. I love the flavor too much to change that.
I know that's a lot of text and questions but you don't have to answer all of it, any help is appreciated.
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Sacred Counsel, Blood of Heroes and Phantom Touch all have their uses. If you want good ac, multiclassing into a heavier armor class like fighter or pick up the feat or buy mithril heavy armor (which may still incur penalties).
A long spear is fine if you can be sure to stay at reach either by tripping or disarming foes who seek to get within it or by flat out dropping them.
I don't know the math but power attack works on 3/4 attack classes who are built as martials. You can mitigate the miss chance in several ways like the feat, or Sacred Counsil and then Blood of Heroes. You shouldn't need to move much with a reach weapon.
As a self-proclaimed buffer/supporter, I don't know why you need that high of a charisma unless you will be taking spells that require a save or abilities that use the modifier for their durations. With that said, reserving 4k of your wealth for a +2 charisma headband allows you to reduce your wisdom score a further two points which can be put into Dex/con as needed.
Your favored class bonus has three good options:
Long haul, fix your ac. Spirit shield lasts an hour per caster level, starts at +4 ac and gets better by 2 at 7 and 11 where it equals full plate. The 13th level feature is icing on the cake (and good using, too).
At level 5 your spirit armor catches up to the medium armor you can start with.
But at level 8 you count as level 12 and the armor is nearly as good as full plate in terms of raw ac and better in that there are no penalties. It also lasts for half a day and there is plenty of adventuring time left for the character. Level 9 gives you your icing.
Blood of Heroes is a nice buff and follows all the same leveling issues as Spirit Armor except the last bonus comes at level 10.
The last option is Ancestral Weapon but as I look it over I find that waiting until level 19 for a +3 ghost Touch longspear is ridiculous. Yes, no weight, yeah you could pick an exotic weapon or one hour class is proficient with. But the delay in usefulness is beyond bad. Waiting until level 3 for the weapon to be masterwork instead of a masterwork weapon at first level is a headache. Waiting until seventh level! For a +1 that everyone else had back at 3rd level is brutal. You won't be hitting hard or often with your ancestral weapon. I apologize.
However if you really wish to keep it, you can try pumping it up and by level 13 you will have a fully upgraded +3 weapon.
I love oracles and they have lots of flavor. I never looked hard at the ancestor kind but doing so I found the flavor outshone the mechanics a little too harshly.
Ancestor has no real strong abilities but seems far more built as a supportive caster first. I do not believe Ancestral Weapon was ever intended as a primary weapon but as a specific tool used in the fight against incorporeal undead. This also seems supported with the Storm of Souls attack. If not focusing to some degree on undead in particular, these abilities will be of rather limited use. If you do wish to or know you will face down many undead, these are excellent choices, though ancestral weapon just comes so late...
I'd have haunted advanced - for sure.
Cant help specific to your build but have played
heavens oracle to 8th (PFS)
life oracle to 7th (PFS)
battle oracle to 16th (SeSk)
dark tapestry to 8th (CC)
wood to 6th
nature (mystic thuerge) to 14th (JR)
they all start of somewhat weak but really hit their stride past 6th and stay massively potent and useful throughout
so
erm
basically don't overly stress....Oracles is Good
Considering I'm running an Ancestor Oracle for a Mummy's Mask game, this seems relevant to me.
First, I feel that Dual-Cursed works better for a Life Oracle. Not only are you forcing yourself to use Extra Revelation in your feat selection, you lose the added skills for your class list as well as Heroism. That kinda outweighs the benefits of the archetype for me. Something like a Life Oracle will already be playing more of a rear support with a side of melee, but I look at Ancestor as a melee guy with some support abilities.
Stat wise, I'd go with Strength and Charisma at 16 to start. You have concerns about surviving in a fight, and a +3 is often enough to get a hit anyway. I'd consider it anyway if you were really dead set on going Dual-Cursed, since surviving may be more important in your melee support role.
For skills to invest in, I'd suggest Linguistics if you are A) not going for Dual-Cursed and B) not using the Tongues curse. It gets you extra languages, and you'd be amazed how often the wizard hasn't invested in it or brought a casting of Comprehend Languages to help with anything involving oddball languages. I'd also consider either your profession/craft skill for early day job checks or at least another knowledge skill so you can determine an enemy's weaknesses.
For feats, Improved Initiative and Combat Casting won't really go wrong for you. You may not want to always go first, but there are definitely fights you never want to go last in. And with a melee support character like an Oracle, you may find yourself frequently casting while in range of an AoO. It's just prudent to have it when you don't want to risk the attack. Power Attack may not be entirely optimal, but you're a divine caster. Divine Favor can level that playing field a bit and add more damage. So you can possibly take that at later level and be semi-effective with it. And as always, Toughness is a solid option if you are worried about survival.
I'll have to agree with Dark Immortal on the Favored Class Bonus suggestions, especially with the Spirit Shield. He's a bit off about Ancestral Weapon, in that it gives you up to Martial Weapons. Nothing too exotic here, unless your race can change that to Martial. There might be a trick that could work for PFS with Ancestral Weapon, but I'll get to that later. I'd also consider the use of the FCB on the Voice of the Grave ability, due to the cumulative penalty to Will saves to get the information with it.
Your AC concerns can be fixed with the Spirit Shield FCB thing we've mentioned already, but there's also a 2nd level spell you can pick up that can give you some good AC. Instant Armor. It scales with level to go either to newer armor or an effective enhancement bonus to an earlier tier. As the armor is made of force, it means that ghosts and such will have to deal with that armor's bonus to your AC. So there are two excellent ways to help the survival issue.
I mentioned a possible trick with Ancestral Weapon, but this one is a little more nebulous in its viability. A 3rd level spell you can pick up, Storm of Blades (from the People of the Sands book) uses a weapon to produce a number of blades to throw at your enemies. Doing so wastes the weapon as a material component. If the combo is legal, then you can use the Ancestral Weapon as normal or have the already temporary weapon be a material component to hit people with flying greatswords or something. That would expend one minutes worth of use of the ability, but it does provide an alternate use for the power.
I hope that has helped a bit.
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I have a 9th level Nagaji Battle Oracle in PFS, named Chun Hei
Obviously not identical to what you're doing, but hopefully it helps inspire you.
Here is her build skeleton. I'll post a snapshot of what she currently looks like at level 9 if there's interest.
She completed Bonekeep 2 and is currently parked, awaiting Bonekeep 3 at GenCon.
Lot of good advice, and I'm taking it. New build:
Race: Aasimar, Angel-Blooded
Alternate Racial traits: Scion of humanity, Truespeaker
Abilities: Str: 18 (16+2), Dex: 12, Con: 14, Int: 10, Wis: 8, Cha: 16 (14+2)
Class: Oracle
Mystery: Ancestor
Curse: ?
Favored Class Bonus: Spirit-Shield
Skills: Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion, Knowledge Planes, Linguistics (will drop one for UMD if that gets added with a trait)
Traits: Fate's Favored, something that's save+1 or Dangerously Curious?
1 feat: combat casting
3 feat: power attack
5 feat: Extra Revelation
7 feat: heavy armor/ Cleave? or meta-magic extend/quicken?
Revelations I'll be getting go like this: spirit shield, ancestral weapon, voice of the grave, wisdom of the ancestors, spirit warrior.
While I won't be focusing on casting, with a charisma of 16 would it be worth it take murderous command or Hold Person when they come available? It's only 1 off the DC from 18 so I think they'd be useful as long I make sure I get the buff spells I need first.
Dark Immortal- Good advice, power attack is back in, favored bonus goes in to spirit shield, ancestral weapon won't be my primary but I think it might be useful to be able to just summon whatever weapon I need whenever so I'll take it later. And yeah I agree that the ancestor mystery is really lacking on the mechanics but I'm just too hooked on the flavor. Next time I'll look into re-flavoring the dark tapestry mystery.
Wasum- Haunted is going to give me mage hand, ghost sound, levitate and minor image and that's it. Is it worth it? With tongues I could just pick common at level 5 and negate pretty much the whole curse couldn't I?
thenovalord- Thanks for the encouragement. How'd the oracle's play, was there any weaknesses you noticed in your early builds that you fixed in your later oracles?
Kalvir- I think your right with dual-cursed. I'm really just getting misfortune out of it with bestow-curse as icing and it does kind of dilute the focus. I'll drop it for now and use it later in a support life oracle character. Adding the Truespeaker trait to get more from linguistics. That storm of blades idea is awesome! I love the thought of summoning ghost swords and flinging them at enemies.
Chun Hei- How's she doing? Is there anything you wish you'd of changed? And I noticed you went dual-cursed, how has that worked out for you?
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Thaine, every +1 modifier is the equivelant of 5%. I have a cleric who is built on negative channeling and combat. As much as I wanted the 19 charisma so that at level 4 I could have a 20 base charisma with a +2 item pushing it to 22, the effort and cost was for an additional 5% chance of success. I felt it was not worth it.
My evil goddess worshipping cleric has a friend who is a cleric of another evil god. We each have 14 wisdom and we both still wish to cast offensively and we feel that anything lower than a 14 is not worth it. Eventually, those 14's will be 16's and we'll be done with the stat. We have every expectation that our spells will resolve, however, and we use offensive spells to boot.
As an example my currently prepared spells are: Murderous Command, Shield of Faith, and Cause fear is his domain. His ally has 2 Murderous Commands and a Cause Fear from his domain.
Casting debuffs is the third thing we want to do and we plan to be pretty decent at it. Channeling and melee is what we want to be good at and as a result our channeling stats are 18 and our melee stats are 16 and 18.
The differences are all 5, 10 and 15%. But with clever forethought, good preparation and some teamwork, you can assume that any one of those are 10% higher for either of us at any given time. This means that our worst ability (casting) is always going to be as good as our best ability (channeling) when it is unmodified. This is why we can happily have 14's and still plan to cast offensively (and succeed). But even without that, a 16 is a very good stat and a 14 is good. As a buffer, either number is totally fine since as a caster those numbers are acceptable as well (though nobody would ever tell you to have a 14-16 int/cha/Wis primary caster role character).
Keep in mind the highest level of spell you want to be able to cast and that you want a stat score that can (with gear) at least equal that. So a 16 for 6th level spells, 15 for 5th, etc.
If this was for society play, you won't see 6th level spells on an oracle (but a 16 is a good choice) and your 5th level spells don't come until 10.
If you need a point of reference for dc's:
Too optimized-
Starting stat of 20 increased to 22 by 8 with +4 headband is a base DC of 18. If doing specific racial bonuses or bloodline combo's add +2 when using the proper school. Then add spell focus and greater spell focus.
Base DC of a 0 level spell that matches becomes 22. First level spell =23, 2nd level =24.
Genuine primary caster:
17-18 casting stat (but increases to 18 at 4th lvl). +2 headband. Spell focus. Base DC =16 for cantrip of proper school, 15 otherwise.
Some go for +4 headbands increasing dc's by 1.
As you have a 16 it gives you a base DC of 13 for a cantrip and 14 for a 1st level spell. The magic number on spell dc's IMO, seems to be about 17. Anything after that is very likely to land. Anything below a 14 has a respectable chance to fail (45-65% depending on your level and monsters targeted).
Since you can increase that 16 to an 18 if you ever wanted to be full on offensive casting, you are well within the range of dc's that will keep your spells landing often enough, though not as often as they could.
Again, I am fine with a 14 but casting is the least of my three capabilities).
Hope that gave you some perspective.
Dark Immortal I could kiss you! This is exactly the kind of advice I need. I simply don't have the experience to know how things play later on and your perspective is invaluable. Thank you.