They're class features, not separate creatures.
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Is it the same for the Leadership feat? Should a single level 10 enemy be able to bring their cohort and all followers into a battle and only count as a CR 10 challenge?
If that's the way you build things yes. I generally however don't build entire armies as a single encounter.
I also don't give NPC's the leadership feat. If I want several PC type characters in an encounter I will build them as separate NPC's and CR it appropriately.
You don't CR an encounter after the fact, you decide what CR you want the encounter to be and build it appropriately.
Yes, it's the same for the Leadership feat. Having said that, challenge rating is a very crude instrument and you need to recognize that not all CR 10 challenges are equally challenging. A super-optimized CR 10 wizard is probably more powerful than a fighter2/rogue2/monk2/ranger2/sorcerer2. And concomittantly more of a challenge.
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Interesting.
What if a 10th level wizard casts dominate person on the (14th level fighter) captain of the town guard and both attack the party. Is that just the normal spellcasting class ability of a 10th level wizard, so it should be a CR 10 encounter?
Technically yes. But you're going to have players complaining about it if you give them all the details of the encounter. Do they know the npc is a 14th lvl fighter? Do they know the wizard is only lvl 10? Like Orfamay Quest said, it's crude and not all-encompassing.
Interesting.
What if a 10th level wizard casts dominate person on the (14th level fighter) captain of the town guard and both attack the party. Is that just the normal spellcasting class ability of a 10th level wizard, so it should be a CR 10 encounter?
Yes, but the CR guidelines also suggest adjustments based on environmental effects. Normally, they're thinking of things like "an encounter against a creature with blindsight in an area that suppresses all light," which would make the creature one challenge rating higher than the book value.
But by the same token, an encounter with a spell-caster in an environment that makes his/her spells more effective would get such a bonus. An evoker in a fireworks factory would probably qualify. So, obviously, would an enchanter in an area where there are lots of mooks to enchant.
Interesting.
What if a 10th level wizard casts dominate person on the (14th level fighter) captain of the town guard and both attack the party. Is that just the normal spellcasting class ability of a 10th level wizard, so it should be a CR 10 encounter?
Does the wizard Dominate the captain during the encounter? That's just using tactics, which the PCs could presumably have prevented in some manner.
If it happens beforehand, however, then the captain is part of the encounter just like any other minion, and worth experience.
If the wizard dominates during the encounter, then that makes the fact that someone is dominated obvious. So casting a dispel or other way to reverse the effect would give you an ally (even if the guy didn't like you before, he would most likely be able to look past that to break the legs of the guy that made him charge at the barbarian. Well, assuming he still has unbroken arms after charging the barbarian)
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Sauce for the goose. I answer any question of this nature by asking whether it would be appropriate to apply it in reverse. Using the Exact XP method in the CRB, the experience for an encounter is divided by the number of characters. So which party members count as characters? Does everybody get less experience because of the familiars, animal companions, mounts, and eidolons? Or would that lead to a player mutiny?
Maybe if the companion gets class levels on top of their normal progression - but that would result in a ridiculously OP companion.
Does the wizard Dominate the captain during the encounter? That's just using tactics, which the PCs could presumably have prevented in some manner.
If it happens beforehand, however, then the captain is part of the encounter just like any other minion, and worth experience.
The CR of the encounter depends on when the dominate happens? So if a wizard pre-casts his summon monster spells before combat begins they should count towards the CR of the encounter as well?
Like I said, I don't really care what the rule is for my games, but it seems to have some very strange corner cases.
They're not that strange or that corner-y. The basic principle is that you don't get experience for good tactics on his part or for bad luck on yours -- likewise, you don't lose experience for having good tactics or his having bad luck. So experience is based on what the encounter designer puts into the encounter, not how the game master plays the encounter, and certainly not on how well or poorly the wizard rolls.
In the case of an enchanter fighting the party in the middle of a crowd of bystanders,... well, that's a tactically advantageous environment (put in by the GM) for the wizard, so he should get a boost over the challenge rating he'd get if he were encountered on a deserted ice floe. Of course, if the reason that there's a crowd of bystanders is because the party bard decided to invite everyone in town to watch the fight (in other words, the party brought the mooks, instead of the GM putting them in as an extra challenge), there's no CR increase, because you don't get bonuses for poor decisions on your part. Someone should have thought to put up a protection from evil spell.
Once the encounter "starts" -- which might be well before initiative is rolled or even before any official surprise round -- the party doesn't get any bonuses for good tactics on the bad guy's part. If he's smart enough to hide and cast zillons of summoning spells to zerg rush the party,... well, they should have rolled better on their perception when he hid. Or perhaps he starts dominating bystanders that the party didn't think to protect from evil.
But if you just remember that the encounter can start before initiative is rolled, and even before the surprise round, then there's not really any corner cases.
How hard is it to base it off of "things you fight" instead of the obtuse way they have laid out now?
It's not hard, it's just a really bad design decision.
The amount of experience you get shouldn't depend upon what spells the bad guys cast. The enemy casting a fireball doesn't give you more experience, why should casting summon monster iii? Similarly, casting baleful polymorph doesn't give more experience, so why should magic jar or dominate person?
The confusion spell is an even more pointed example. if I confuse the barbarian and he attacks the bard, that's more experience than if he just babbles incoherently? That turns confusion into a roll-to-see-how-much=bonus-experience-to-give spell.
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So you include all of the animal companions and every summoned creature separately when awarding xp after an encounter?How hard is it to base it off of "things you fight" instead of the obtuse way they have laid out now?
If the GM is specifically throwing in things that makes the encounter harder than it should be then yes. If it's something appropriate for the difficulty of the fight then no. Obviously a lvl 10 dominating a lvl 14 is more difficult than it's supposed to be. It's not rocket science and shouldn't be treated as such. It's simply common sense.
Class abilities don't give XP. Otherwise animal companions, and eidolons would also count as XP. Using animate dead also does not make the encounter grant you extra XP. If you want to switch it around dominating monsters does not take away from a group's XP. Neither do animal companions or any other creature the party brings into a fight.
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You mean like a special GM-created long term summon? That's part of the encounter. Why should that be any different than hiring a bunch of guards?
I'm not getting why it's so hard to figure out party experience.
No, I mean the standard spells.
Say an adventuring party is walking down the street and an evil wizard sees them and ducks into an alley. The party fails their checks to notice him and he casts summon monster 5 a few times before they reach the alley he slipped into and they attack. During combat he summons a few more monsters. You're saying that the ones he summoned before combat started will count when calculating the CR and the rest don't?
Most of the other posters here say that none of the spells count, nor does his familiar, nor would any followers from the leadership feat, but you disagree? If so, is that your house rule or do you have any rules to justify doing it that way?
If you summon monsters immediately before an encounter, you are spending spell slots (or using magic items) which are assumed to be part of your available resources for the encounter. If you cast Summon Monster II just before an encounter, then you're not casting Invisibility as a pre-buff, or maybe you couldn't use Glitterdust during the fight. If you cast long-duration spells without component costs (like Dominate) prior to an encounter, you're not cutting into the resources available during the encounter and so the challenge is in theory greater.
Having said that, challenge rating is a very crude instrument and you need to recognize that not all CR 10 challenges are equally challenging. A super-optimized CR 10 wizard is probably more powerful than a fighter2/rogue2/monk2/ranger2/sorcerer2. And concomittantly more of a challenge.
Agreed. The CR system is a guideline and if the GM is intentionally building encounters to be more or less challenging they should adjust CR/XP accordingly.
How hard is it to base it off of "things you fight" instead of the obtuse way they have laid out now?It's not hard, it's just a really bad design decision.
The amount of experience you get shouldn't depend upon what spells the bad guys cast. The enemy casting a fireball doesn't give you more experience, why should casting summon monster iii? Similarly, casting baleful polymorph doesn't give more experience, so why should magic jar or dominate person?
The confusion spell is an even more pointed example. if I confuse the barbarian and he attacks the bard, that's more experience than if he just babbles incoherently? That turns confusion into a roll-to-see-how-much=bonus-experience-to-give spell.
Short version...because summon monster (x). Slightly longer version...because of 2nd Edition and outsiders that would summon friends, and then the friends could summon friends, and then...and then...and DMs handing out 2-3 levels worth of XP based on what was fought.