A couple of Monk Rule Questions

[Grooven]

I have found posts and discussions on both of these questions but was hoping to get an official answer from paizo.

Question 1: If I take an archetype that allows me to skip style prerequisites such as master of many styles monk, do I still need to take the second feat in the chain to take the final feat? (ie: Can a MOMS monk take Snake Fang without taking Snake Sidewind with his second level bonus feat?)

Question 2: Can I mix the Qinggong archetype with other archetypes by choosing not to replace the class features that they other archetype gives up.

I have read differing opinions on both and understand both sides of the arguments on both topics. Most of the games I play are society games so I like to stay away from grey areas in the rules because each GM may interperet the rules differently.

I'm not looking to rehash the arguments here but rather asking if anyone has seen an official post on these topics from a paizo employee and hopefully to get it marked as a faq candidate.

[Michael Sayre]

Question 1: No, but a lot of those feats don't work without the mechanics provided by the second feat.

Question 2: Yes, there's even a FAQ specifically stating so.

[dragonhunterq]

crb wrote:

Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style's feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style).

1) no FAQ needed, it's pretty clearly spelled out that the chained feats are not 'style' feats. You need the first 'style' feat before you can take the subsequent feats.

2) already FAQ'd

[Grooven]

Thanks for the response, my question was actually can you take the third chained feat without taking the second chained feat (with your moms bonus feat) assuming you already have the base style feat. I appreciate the link to the FAQ as well.

In the example you gave, could you take earth child binder assuming you had earth child style but not earth child topple.

[Michael Sayre]

Yes, MoMS lets you jump the second feat in the chain, though that's not always the best idea since the "capstone" feat frequently references mechanics provided by the second feat. The class does allow you to grab any feat in the chain though, as long as you have the initial style feat.

[Grooven]

Thank you for your response Ssalaran. You are presenting the argument that MoMS lets you jumped the second feat in the chain. There is also the argument that it doesn't let you jump the second feat in the chain. As I stated above I don't want to rehash the arguments. My point is that a argument exists for both sides. In fact Lonewolf development has set up Hero Lab so that you have to take the second feat before you can take the 3rd feat. They have also stated that they won't change this unless they See a FAQ from paizo. No matter how strongly you believe one side or the other fact still exist that this is a grey area as there are people on both sides. This makes skipping the second feat in society play risky as you may run into variation in GM interpretation. This is why I was hoping to find an official answer from a paizo employee or have it marked as a has FAQ candidate.

[Krodjin]

@Grooven: Hero Lab is not the authority on Paizo Rules.

It's expressly stated that a MoMS can in fact take the 3rd feat in the chain without taking the second feat, so long as he/she has the base "Style" feat.

The issue is (as others have pointed out) in a lot of instances the 3rd feat won't do anything for you without the second.

dragonhunterq quoted the rule. It is as unambiguous as anything Paizo has ever written so I don't think there is an argument for the other side... The usual argument regarding the MoMS is regarding the Elemental Fist feat and it's pre-requisites which is not what you're asking.

[Rynjin]

Someone erroneously using Hero Lab as a rules source again?

Must be a day ending in Y.

And James Risner says it never happens.

[Grooven]

I am not using hero lab as a rules resource! I am using them as an example that their are people interpreting this rule in different ways. Other examples can be found with forum searches. Different interpretations leads to GM variation which can be a problem in society plate.

@ Krodjin, what it says is a master of many styles monk may choose a feat in that styles the path as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat. Some people are interpreting the appropriate style feat to mean the preceding feat in the path.

Please don't interpret what I'm saying as I agree with this argument, rather that the argument exists and it creates GM variation which can be a problem in society play.

[Michael Sayre]

Grooven wrote:

@ Krodjin, what it says is a master of many styles monk may choose a feat in that styles the path as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat. Some people are interpreting the appropriate style feat to mean the preceding feat in the path.

Which would be incorrect under the current RAW.

Crane Style

Crane Wing

Crane Riposte

How many style feats did I just list?

The answer is 1. Crane Wing and Crane Riposte are not style feats and so do not meet the description "appropriate style feat".

[Krodjin]

Good catch Ssalarn - I never noticed that before.

[Grooven]

The counter argument would be that crane wing and crane riposte are in fact both style feats as evidenced by the fact that they are listed under the style feats heading in the table on page 86 of Ultimate Combat. Again, I'm not trying to argue that this is correct just that there is a counter argument present. This counter argument makes things gray and creates GM variation on the rules interpretation which can be a problem in society play. Hence the request for a rules clarification.

[James Risner]

Rynjin wrote:

Someone erroneously using Hero Lab as a rules source again?

And James Risner says it never happens.

Turns out this particular rule has a fair number of people on either side of the debate.

I don't know which way it should be ruled, but we don't have direct guidance (to my knowledge) whether or not you can skip ahead to the third in the chain by skipping the first and/or second.

[Mojorat]

Err

moms wrote:

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style's feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style's feat path. This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.

If you have the style feat such as kirin style you can ignore the prerequisite of any other feat in the styles feat path. Its explicitly stated.

[dragonhunterq]

Mojorat wrote:

Err

moms wrote:

The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style's feat path. This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.

If you have the style feat such as kirin style you can ignore the prerequisite of any other feat in the styles feat path. Its explicitly stated.

Yep, I'd have to agree that you can RAW skip the middle feat in the chain.

I missed that and it's gonna change my MoMS monk for an upcoming game...

[Trekkie90909]

Ssalarn wrote:

Grooven wrote:

@ Krodjin, what it says is a master of many styles monk may choose a feat in that styles the path as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat. Some people are interpreting the appropriate style feat to mean the preceding feat in the path.

Which would be incorrect under the current RAW.

Crane Style

Crane Wing

Crane Riposte

How many style feats did I just list?

The answer is 1. Crane Wing and Crane Riposte are not style feats and so do not meet the description "appropriate style feat".

Under the Current RAW they're all organized in a separate section titled "style feats" in UC.

Something categorized as a style feat>having "style" in its name

[Grooven]

James Risner wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Someone erroneously using Hero Lab as a rules source again?

And James Risner says it never happens.

Turns out this particular rule has a fair number of people on either side of the debate.

I don't know which way it should be ruled, but we don't have direct guidance (to my knowledge) whether or not you can skip ahead to the third in the chain by skipping the first and/or second.

Thanks for this comment. This is the whole reason I am hoping for paizo clarification. I would appreciate it if people marked this for a FAQ. As stated in the original post I didn't want to rehash all the arguments in this thread.

[Krodjin]

Trekkie90909 wrote:

Ssalarn wrote:

Grooven wrote:

@ Krodjin, what it says is a master of many styles monk may choose a feat in that styles the path as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat. Some people are interpreting the appropriate style feat to mean the preceding feat in the path.

Which would be incorrect under the current RAW.

Crane Style

Crane Wing

Crane Riposte

How many style feats did I just list?

The answer is 1. Crane Wing and Crane Riposte are not style feats and so do not meet the description "appropriate style feat".

Under the Current RAW they're all organized in a separate section titled "style feats" in UC.

Something categorized as a style feat>having "style" in its name

No, what Sslarn is referring to is the fact that in the parenthesis after the feat name it says "Dragon Ferocity (Combat)" or "Dragon Style (Combat, Style)".

So really: Something designated as a Style Feat = Style in its name > Listed in the style feats section.

[Mojorat]

repeating this because people are still discussing this as if it were confusing. Read the whole of the ability. Moms refers to the base featvin the chain asvthe style feat then to the whole series of feats as a feat path. It then explicitly gives permission toignore any prerequisite in the feat path (except elementalfist)

[Rynjin]

I'm not going to FAQ it myself. I'm tired of Paizo having a good Monk ability brought to their attention and saying "Well, we can't have THAT shit lolololol" and Crane Winging it into the dirt.

[Michael Sayre]

Grooven wrote:

The counter argument would be that crane wing and crane riposte are in fact both style feats as evidenced by the fact that they are listed under the style feats heading in the table on page 86 of Ultimate Combat. Again, I'm not trying to argue that this is correct just that there is a counter argument present. This counter argument makes things gray and creates GM variation on the rules interpretation which can be a problem in society play. Hence the request for a rules clarification.

And the people making that counter argument would be people who didn't actually stop to read the rules they're debating. "Style" is a feat descriptor just like "Combat". Only feats with the "Style" descriptor are style feats.

Blighted Critical and Power Attack are both feats that can be used in combat, but only one of them is a combat feat. That would be Power Attack, because it's specifically designated as such. A Fighter could only choose one of those feats as a bonus feat.

Feats are what the rules say they are, not what someone thinks they are because of glancing at a table. Crane Wing and Crane Riposte are listed under Crane Style in the feats table because Crane Style is a prereq, just like how the technical combat maneuver feats are organized under Combat Expertise.

[Grooven]

I have to say I agree with everyone of your arguments and I personally interpret the rule to be that you can skip the second feat in the path as it isn't a style feat. Having said that the whole point of my post is that their is a large group of people out their who interpret the rule differently. As Rynjin alluded to earlier in this thread many people erroneously use Hero Lab as a rules resource and when Lone Wolf development comes out and makes a statement like:

"that until a developer or official FAQ comes out stating otherwise, they are reading the line that says "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat" to mean "as long as he has the previous feat in the chain".

It creates a lot of confusion and because of that you run into GM's who are now saying that you need the second feat to take the third feat. This is why I would like a faq. I don't want my pfs monk to get audited and claimed illegal by a conservative pfs GM in my area.

I wholly understand Rynjin's sentiment that he doesn't want it faq'd in case it gets crane winged. I don't think it will though as it seems to me the intent is to let you bypass the second feat.

Regardless, I think it's difficult to ignore that their is confusion around this and in pfs you are taking some risk by skipping the second feat in the chain.

[Mojorat]

Grooven wrote:

I have to say I agree with everyone of your arguments and I personally interpret the rule to be that you can skip the second feat in the path as it isn't a style feat. Having said that the whole point of my post is that their is a large group of people out their who interpret the rule differently. As Rynjin alluded to earlier in this thread many people erroneously use Hero Lab as a rules resource and when Lone Wolf development comes out and makes a statement like:

"that until a developer or official FAQ comes out stating otherwise, they are reading the line that says "Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style’s feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat" to mean "as long as he has the previous feat in the chain".

It creates a lot of confusion and because of that you run into GM's who are now saying that you need the second feat to take the third feat. This is why I would like a faq. I don't want my pfs monk to get audited and claimed illegal by a conservative pfs GM in my area.

I wholly understand Rynjin's sentiment that he doesn't want it faq'd in case it gets crane winged. I don't think it will though as it seems to me the intent is to let you bypass the second feat.

Regardless, I think it's difficult to ignore that their is confusion around this and in pfs you are taking some risk by skipping the second feat in the chain.

I'm not sure I've ever said this before but..anyone who says a master of many styles cannot skip feats in the style path is flat out wrong. And I don't mean I can see why they see it that way but I dis agree with the. They would need to either have a reading comprehension issue or flat out ignoring sections of the text. Since I've done my original post the thread has carried on.. for the most part the master of many styles bonus feats section is well written

master of many styles wrote:

Bonus Feat: At 1st level, 2nd level, and every four levels thereafter, a master of many styles may select a bonus style feat or the Elemental Fist feat. He does not have to meet the prerequisites of that feat, except the Elemental Fist feat. Alternatively, a master of many styles may choose a feat in that style's feat path (such as Earth Child Topple) as one of these bonus feats if he already has the appropriate style feat (such as Earth Child Style). The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style's feat path. This ability replaces a monk's standard bonus feats.

This does the following. It explicitly says you can take any style feat.

You must meat the prerequisite for elemental fist

That the chain of feats following. A style such as Crane style are a feat path. It then says

master of many styles wrote:

The master of many styles does not need to meet any other prerequisite of the feat in the style's feat path.

I don't see how it can get more explicit.

[Imbicatus]

Mojorat wrote:

This does the following. It explicitly says you can take any style feat.

You must meat the prerequisite for elemental fist

This is actually not entirely correct. You can take any style feat without any prerequisite except elemental fist. For example, you cannot take Shaitan Style without elemental fist.

You can take elemental fist without meeting any prerequisites.

[Mojorat]

In all honesty? I think the elemental fist portion is the only part where the wording could have been better. Really looking at it I can agree with you. Taking a style feat that wants elemental fist usually functionally requires the feat. Its really avseperate discussion however.

[Rynjin]

The Elemental Fist portion is the most ambiguous part. It can be read one of two ways: You must meet prereqs for Elemental Fist, or you must have Elemental Fist to take Feats that require it, but don't need to meet the prereqs for itself.

Both are 100% correct interpretations of the sentence using proper English.