Greetings all,
I have a question about mythic mirror image, as it seems to be only slightly better than the non-mythic version until you're very high level. The mythic spell descriptor is as follows:
The calculations for mirror image (d4+1 image per 3 caster levels) are unchanged in the mythic version, and per the 8 image max of the base spell (possible by 12th level with a perfect roll), mean that you won't be getting much out of the mythic version until at least 15th level, and that you will never make it to the 12 image cap even if you're using wild arcana + an orange ioun stone to get your caster level to 23 at 20th level.
Suggestions for maybe modifying the calculation (maybe CL/2 instead of 3) or perhaps have it work like Greater Mirror image from 3.5?
Yeah its crap.
You could Houserule that images don't get removed unless the attack roll is within 2 of your AC instead of 5, or keep the 5 and give them displacement vs near misses, or change dazzled to blinded (possibly with a save) for 1 round with the original cap.
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No it's not crap.
An 8% chance of getting hit? Far from crap.
The mythic Bard in our party who uses it in every almost every fight gets attacked as much as everyone else does and has NEVER been hit while it's up.
EVER.
Distantly far from crap.
Roelandt wrote: No it's not crap.
An 8% chance of getting hit? Far from crap.
The mythic Bard in our party who uses it in every almost every fight gets attacked as much as everyone else does and has NEVER been hit while it's up.
EVER.
Distantly far from crap.
Their point wasn't that Mirror Image is bad. Their point is that the difference between Mythic Mirror Image and standard Mirror Image is negligible.
As OP said... The difference in the amount of images only comes into play at 15th lvl and by then you would need a perfect roll aswell. At 18th lvl you'd need 3+ on the roll for Mythic to make a difference on the amount of images. At 20th lvl you'd need some sort of CL bonus to get an extra image.
On top of this Mythic adds dazzled to the attacking creature PROVIDED that he fails a will save. Even then dazzled is basically a -1 to hit... not a very strong effect.
All in all the difference between Mirror Image and Mythic Mirror Image seems so small that I'd question anyone who decided to take it.
Jeff Morse wrote: what if you empower it? Since the cap is not a variable, empower won't affect it. It might however, give you a greater chance of having your max.
LazarX wrote: Jeff Morse wrote: what if you empower it? Since the cap is not a variable, empower won't affect it. It might however, give you a greater chance of having your max. I strongly disagree, there was a thread about this subject before.
Empower says this:
Empower Spell wrote: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls. The Mythic versions specifically says it increases the capacity of images to 12 instead of 8. 8 in the normal version is the hard cap, and it does not change. The amount you can generate (up to the hard cap) does.
We acknowledge that, to generate an amount of images, you roll 1D4 + an extra 1 for every 3 CL you possess.
Is that 1D4+(X/3) not, in fact, variable and numeric? You can roll 1, 2, 3, or 4. The bolded part then says you include bonuses to the dice rolls in question, which the (X/3) most certainly is. So Empower would adjust the formula to be 1.5(1D4+[X/3]), which still caps out at 8 images, or 12 if you make it Mythic.
LazarX wrote: Jeff Morse wrote: what if you empower it? Since the cap is not a variable, empower won't affect it. It might however, give you a greater chance of having your max. FAQ wrote: Empower Spell: If I use Empower Spell on a spell that has a die roll with a numerical bonus (such as cure moderate wounds), does the feat affect the numerical bonus?
Yes. For example, if you empower cure moderate wounds, the +50% from the feat applies to the 2d8 and to the level-based bonus.
This feat says nothing about a hard cap on a spell, so we have to assume that it is unchanged. However, as LazarX wrote, it would make it easier to reach your maximum amount of images.
That cap is not variable, and your quote about cure moderate says nothing about bypassing a cap.
What is variable is the dice when you roll them. However you are still limited by the cap of 8 or 12 depending on which version of the spell you are using.
As an example if you empower mirror image to get 10 somehow, but the cap is 8, then you can't get above 8.
wraithstrike wrote: That cap is not variable, and your quote about cure moderate says nothing about bypassing a cap.
What is variable is the dice when you roll them. However you are still limited by the cap of 8 or 12 depending on which version of the spell you are using.
As an example if you empower mirror image to get 10 somehow, but the cap is 8, then you can't get above 8.
Which is what I was actually saying.
All I wanted to point to was what the FAQ said about the feat. What it shows is that if you are CL 12 and then cast Mirror Image then you would get 1d4+4 Images with a max of 8 (hard cap for the spell). If you empower the spell then you get (1d4+4)*1.5 (as per the faq, even the static bonus gets multiplied) but again the maximum amount of images you can get is at 8. The same naturally goes for the mythic version, only the cap is 12 instead of 8.
Lifat wrote: wraithstrike wrote: That cap is not variable, and your quote about cure moderate says nothing about bypassing a cap.
What is variable is the dice when you roll them. However you are still limited by the cap of 8 or 12 depending on which version of the spell you are using.
As an example if you empower mirror image to get 10 somehow, but the cap is 8, then you can't get above 8.
Which is what I was actually saying.
All I wanted to point to was what the FAQ said about the feat. What it shows is that if you are CL 12 and then cast Mirror Image then you would get 1d4+4 Images with a max of 8 (hard cap for the spell). If you empower the spell then you get (1d4+4)*1.5 (as per the faq, even the static bonus gets multiplied) but again the maximum amount of images you can get is at 8. The same naturally goes for the mythic version, only the cap is 12 instead of 8. ok.. I thought you were saying empower was ignoring the cap.
I think we all agree them.
wraithstrike wrote: Lifat wrote: wraithstrike wrote: That cap is not variable, and your quote about cure moderate says nothing about bypassing a cap.
What is variable is the dice when you roll them. However you are still limited by the cap of 8 or 12 depending on which version of the spell you are using.
As an example if you empower mirror image to get 10 somehow, but the cap is 8, then you can't get above 8.
Which is what I was actually saying.
All I wanted to point to was what the FAQ said about the feat. What it shows is that if you are CL 12 and then cast Mirror Image then you would get 1d4+4 Images with a max of 8 (hard cap for the spell). If you empower the spell then you get (1d4+4)*1.5 (as per the faq, even the static bonus gets multiplied) but again the maximum amount of images you can get is at 8. The same naturally goes for the mythic version, only the cap is 12 instead of 8. ok.. I thought you were saying empower was ignoring the cap.
I think we all agree them. Truth be told at first I misunderstood what LazarX was saying. I thought he was saying that the empower bonus didn't multiply the static bonus to the roll, which is why I found the quote... But while I was writing, I realized that he was talking about the hard cap.
And yeah... I do think at least LazarX, you and me agree on this.
So it's still crap. Unless you use metamagic where it becomes OK compared to the original.
I am not sure either way about the cap.
Option #1: The variable effect is 1d4+CL/3. This is modified by empowered spell. There is then a cap of 8.
Option #2: The variable effect is "min(1d4+CL/3, 8)". This is modified by empowered spell.
The cap isn't affected by Empower, but I would argue that the Empower amount is "in addition to" and doesn't consider caps.
Compare any damage spell. An empowered 10d6 Fireball does 10d6 +50% damage. I don't see why it would be any different for Mirror Image.
Forget empower, we're rating the mythic version of the spell as it stands. It's crap!
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