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This guy, that is.
First, if you dip a single level in Monk (Sohei), can you FoB using the unarmed damage given by the Iroran Paladin? (I only chose Sohei because they can flurry in light armor). RAW & RAI I think yes.
Second, can you stack levels between Monk and Paladin to determined Unarmed Strike Damage? Like, half your Paladin level plus your Monk levenl? I think RAW, no, but RAI, yes.
Third, is the sum of charisma and dexterity bonuses capped by your armor's max dex bonus? Or is only the dex bonus capped? Or is each capped separately? I really have no idea on this one, from the wording.
Sohei was a bad choice for the second question, I realized, since Sohei's unarmed damage doesn't increase. The question still stands for multiclassing into other types of monk. Though, I do think that Sohei is probably the only viable one for this build, since you can't afford to put points into Wisdom.
This guy, that is.
First, if you dip a single level in Monk (Sohei), can you FoB using the unarmed damage given by the Iroran Paladin? (I only chose Sohei because they can flurry in light armor). RAW & RAI I think yes.
Second, can you stack levels between Monk and Paladin to determined Unarmed Strike Damage? Like, half your Paladin level plus your Monk levenl? I think RAW, no, but RAI, yes.
Third, is the sum of charisma and dexterity bonuses capped by your armor's max dex bonus? Or is only the dex bonus capped? Or is each capped separately? I really have no idea on this one, from the wording.
1) If you flurry You use your unarmed damage, whatever the source. so yes.
2) RAW you add your paladin levels + 1/2 your monk levels to determine your UAS damage - you have it backwards, but they do stack.3)From the wording, there is nothing that indicates your Cha is capped by your armour's max dex, it is only capped by your level.
I've left my original answer to 3 in place, because that was my initial response - i then went and double checked and that is ugly wording, and I see why you are confused. Why they didn't just use the same wording as the monk ability, or even the Duelist Canny Defence, I have no idea. In my game it would work as the Duelist Canny Defence, but as written it certainly appears as if Dex+Cha are added together and therefore capped by Max Dex
I'm not sure you're correct about number 2; the wording is "treating his monk level as half his paladin level (minimum 1) for calculating his unarmed strike damage." I'm fairly certain that's supposed to mean that your effective monk level is equal to half of your paladin level for determining unarmed strike damage. No? It's poorly worded, again.
I'm not sure you're correct about number 2; the wording is "treating his monk level as half his paladin level (minimum 1) for calculating his unarmed strike damage." I'm fairly certain that's supposed to mean that your effective monk level is equal to half of your paladin level for determining unarmed strike damage. No? It's poorly worded, again.
Blergh! you are right, I am having a bad day with the reading thing today...
2) no stackingThat is awfully written.
Man, I'm running some numbers, and I think Monk (Sohei) 2 / Paladin (Iroran Paladin) X has serious potential. With getting to add CHA to AC, he can almost rival a sword-and-Board paladin for armor class, and beats him for touch AC. And he's much better at defense than a two-hander paladin. Due to the dip in Monk, he's superior at saves as well.
Give the guy the Armor Expert trait, and you can have him in Mithral Breastplate pretty early on, despite not being proficient, since the armor check penalty will be zero.
The other key, I think, is to not be trapped into using Unarmed Strikes early. He can flurry with a Sansetsukon (two-handed, 1d10, 19-20/x2, blocking, disarm, monk) right from the beginning, which will be a better bet until your Divine Body and Unarmed Strike abilities become more developed. Tack on Power Attack to that, and you're golden.
And what's *really* great is that he can use a reach weapon for AoOs, and FoB with fists for adjacent targets, since he doesn't need his hands free.
Man, I'm running some numbers, and I think Monk (Sohei) 2 / Paladin (Iroran Paladin) X has serious potential. With getting to add CHA to AC, he can almost rival a sword-and-Board paladin for armor class, and beats him for touch AC. And he's much better at defense than a two-hander paladin. Due to the dip in Monk, he's superior at saves as well.
Give the guy the Armor Expert trait, and you can have him in Mithral Breastplate pretty early on, despite not being proficient, since the armor check penalty will be zero.
The other key, I think, is to not be trapped into using Unarmed Strikes early. He can flurry with a Sansetsukon (two-handed, 1d10, 19-20/x2, blocking, disarm, monk) right from the beginning, which will be a better bet until your Divine Body and Unarmed Strike abilities become more developed. Tack on Power Attack to that, and you're golden.
And what's *really* great is that he can use a reach weapon for AoOs, and FoB with fists for adjacent targets, since he doesn't need his hands free.
Mithril Breastplate remains medium armour, so negates confident defence.
Oh man, oh man, I just saw a really neat trick, but I'm not 100% certain it's legit.
Ok, so, the Iroran Paladin archetype can be combined with the Oath Against Fiends archetype, because they don't replace any of the same features.
Now, the Oath Against Fiends archetype has an ability replacing the 9th level mercy, Holy Vessel, which lets you use your Divine Bond bonuses for your armor instead of your weapon, if you wish to.
Now, if I'm correct, this means that if you combine the archetypes, you can simply choose not to use unarmed strikes at all, getting magic weapons like a normal dude, and then just use your divine bond bonuses to supplement your armor.
Mithril Breastplate remains medium armour, so negates confident defence.
No, it remains medium armor only for the purpose of determining proficiency. From Ultimate Equipment (I'm transcribing it from my book):
"Most mithral armors are one category lighter for purposes of movement and other limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty on all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving."
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Wow. This looks pretty neat actually. I'd been pondering a paladin/monk PFS character for extreme peril adventures, but I couldn't crack the armor/wisdom issue.
I wonder what races would be best choices? Aasimar could work of course, as could halfling. Halfling's a bit annoying in the damage output department but pretty great in the defence department.
The first thing I noticed about the Iroran Paladin is that it doesn't allow Champion of Irori, due to the smite evil replacement. That doesn't have any sense.
I wonder what races would be best choices? Aasimar could work of course, as could halfling. Halfling's a bit annoying in the damage output department but pretty great in the defence department.
I wouldn't consider halfling, to be honest; this guy's defensive capabilities (at least after the first few levels) will be high enough already. A Halfling version will be unkillable, perhaps, but he'll just be ignored by enemies. Need to pick a race for damage potential.
Only two I would consider "optimal" would be Angel-Blooded Aasimar, and Human. Human because you can take both Fey Foundling and Power Attack at level 1, which makes them the better choice for the first two levels. Level 3 and later, I think Angel-Blooded Aasimar is the superior choice.
A few more things about this build:
* One, upon further thought, I don't think the second level of Sohei is worth taking, at least not until later in the build. It doesn't help offensive capabilities. So, I would go Paladin 1 > Sohei 1 > Paladin X, or Paladin 2 > Sohei 1 > Paladin X, depending on whether you want the Flurry or the Lay on Hands/Divine Grace first. Maybe consider a second level of Sohei after Paladin 8, but not before.
* Two, this guy will be inferior to a standard Paladin until about level 3, as his charisma bonus to AC is limited by his class level. And I wouldn't say he's really great until level 5 (Sohei 1 / Paladin 4).
I wonder what races would be best choices? Aasimar could work of course, as could halfling. Halfling's a bit annoying in the damage output department but pretty great in the defence department.I wouldn't consider halfling, to be honest; this guy's defensive capabilities (at least after the first few levels) will be high enough already. A Halfling version will be unkillable, perhaps, but he'll just be ignored by enemies. Need to pick a race for damage potential.
I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, since Risky Striker puts things more in the halfling's favor. With a feat that is basically a second power attack against large and bigger foes (which, quite honestly, are fairly common at higher levels since the design principles tend to think "High CR=Bigger" a lot of the time), they can be quite threatening.
Anyway, great catch on the Oath against fiends. While I am not entirely a fan of the armor boost (it is not as great as weapon enhancement), you are right that it does remove just about the only things shackling you to unarmed strike (not to say unarmed strikes are bad, but this archetype is just not equipped to make them 'great'). Makes this an excellent platform for a reach build (hey, they already have unarmed strike)
Ok, something I'm curious about is how these two features interact:
Confident Defense (Ex): At 1st level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, an Iroran paladin adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. This ability replaces his proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.
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Prophetic Armor (Ex): You are so in tune with your primal nature that your instincts often act to save you from danger that your civilized mind isn't even aware of. You may use your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) as part of your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma, instead.
James Jacobs, at least, has said that you can never add an ability modifier twice to the same thing, and that's probably how I'd run it too.
That being said, some DMs might allow it.
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I get your point against halflings. In this however my motive is a bit different than yours; I already play a human paladin that just hits stuff. I was thinking about a character that's unusually strong on defence and yet fast.
However, doing enough damage to remain a relevant target is indeed valuable, perhaps even necessary. That Risky Striker feat is pretty cool actually, because unlike Power Attack it doesn't sacrifice hitting accuracy. I'm thinking this character might catch people by surprise by not seeming to be an important target in combat, then suddenly being exactly where he needs to be and going to town.
Angelblooded Aasimar is pretty nice, I think it's probably the strongest choice if you care about offence. The halfling would be the best defensive choice with some underdog fun with Risky Striker. The human is of course not bad (humans never are), but not as extreme.
Ok, something I'm curious about is how these two features interact:
Confident Defense (Ex): At 1st level, when wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, an Iroran paladin adds 1 point of his Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to his Dexterity bonus to his Armor Class. If he is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus, he also loses this bonus. This ability replaces his proficiency with medium armor, heavy armor, and shields.
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Prophetic Armor (Ex): You are so in tune with your primal nature that your instincts often act to save you from danger that your civilized mind isn't even aware of. You may use your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) as part of your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma, instead.
If I remember correctly, you usually can't double up on the same stat.
There are, of course, ways around it depending on the language. Dragon Ferocity, for instance, says that you "gain a bonus on unarmed strike damage rolls equal to half your Strength bonus". As in, you do not gain .5x your strength bonus, but a bonus that JUST HAPPENS to be equal to to .5x it.
Oh, and because I also love throwing monkey wrenches, Osyluth Guile also lets you add your CHA as a dodge bonus (unsure if it stacks here). And the fun part is that Iroran Paladins can lie and poison all they want, since they get to write their own code!
Actually, you might have a point with the oracle thing. It replaces DEX with CHA, and then adds CHA to DEX. My cautious side errs towards 'no'... but again, MONKEY WRENCHES!
Oh, and because I also love throwing monkey wrenches, Osyluth Guile also lets you add your CHA as a dodge bonus (unsure if it stacks here).
I'm not sure either. If so, though, it's a good choice since the Paladin is all set to take the first Crane Style feat anyway, which makes defensive fighting viable.
I'll add it to the guide I'm making.