Goblin Squad Member
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First Being, I think we are separate pages..or one of us misunderstands the Assassination Mechanic.If at any point I say something Incorrect. please correct me.
First: An assassination only separates the nearest binding point, not multiple.
Second: Assassination can happen outside of a settlements PVP window.
Third, If an assassination only takes a few hours to complete (from when you first accept it, to the actual assassination) then I'd be disappointed. A assassination should require at least a couple days to set up. Using multiple disguises to gain info (unless you already have info on target) over the course of time. Then the actual stalking of your target with your assassination team.
Then the flaw I see with your example (just thinking how I would handle it myself) is, as soon as the target gets the Observed notice he tells his guards (who should be in a Voice Coms with him) that he is being Observed, at which point the guards starts yelling for everyone who can hear them to lay flat, a target is being "Observed". Anyone who has not laid down in a certain time limit (we can say half or even 3/4 of the time it takes for a couple assassins to Observe a target) is attacked/killed on the spot. If the assassin is forced to lay down, it takes longer for him to ready an attack, if he does not, hes attacked anyways. IF he is hiding, he has to be a distance away anyways, because its already been said that stealth wont get you up next to your target.
Now along with this, if any bystanders are killed, I'm sure the target would be expected to reimburse any gear lost this way. But hey, you didn't get assassinated so it's a win.
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Goblin Squad Member
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while traveling, if your a high ranking official, you should ALWAYS be ACTIVELY looking out. there should be nothing passive about it...You intend only to hunt when someone is traveling? How convenient for your target.
It's the smart way to do it. Lower the risk, while keeping a higher reward. Now, if necessary I will venture into a targets settlement ( after a bit of training of course, i'm not TOO suicidal)
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Goblin Squad Member
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So I don't think we are all that far away. I set up the contract to specify the PvP window because of a strategic reason the contracting entity desired. I wasn't imagining the assassination was without point. I specified multiple bind point threads because once that first bind point is severed it no longer exists to be severed so the second assassin's thread severing takes care of the second bind point, probably throwing the seneschal back to a starter town. And yes, it would be best if such an assassination required a bunch of lead time but all the contracting party wants is that it should be accomplished within a certain window for it to be useful to the force he represents, useful enough to make it worth paying you pretties for the deed.
So if you decide the time is right to pop the cap on the seneschal it won't fulfill the contract until the PvP window opens while their forces are ready to attack. That adds some pressure to your task.
Your scenario of the guards commanding everyone to lie flat is a good approach, but the proposal is saying there should be a chance that the seneschal may not get the warning in the first place. It is removing risk from the assassin and adding even more to the target without adding value to the event (because a forewarned seneschal will be much more engaged than a blithely unaware seneschal).
You're asking for a chunk of the multiplayer game to be removed in order to lower the assassin's risk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To add to Being's rebuttal, this also assumes that the only people in the area will be on voice comms, in the same channel with the senschal. That there will be no visitors to the settlement, or that the guards are willing to take the collateral damage rep/alignment hit of murderhoboing anyone not in voice or afk just to prevent the assassination. That's insane.
The thing I think someone people are kind of unhappy with is this: Not only is assassination hard, but when the target knows you're after him ahead of time, it can get borderline impossible.
You will likely need to make multiple attempts, which is why assassins have the "inventory self-destruct" ability. You will need to play it safe. When they tell you to lie down, you lie down, then follow after.
Here's one potential strategy, which I, as a non-assassin, feel no compunctions in sharing:
Disguise yourself and move into a settlement. Observe some unrelated (but plausible) target for a bit. Then start observing an outright implausible target, like a commoner or a barbarian—someone whose assassination would accomplish little. Ideally, it's someone you've determined your targets don't totally trust. A foreigner would be a great option—or even a plant you hired!
Finally, start observing your real target. When they decide, "Okay, there's an assassin, all three of you in the tavern," claim that you're also being observed.
With any luck, they'll buy it and usher you to "safety". Now, your implausible target will serve as a buffer—which of you is the assassin?
When a target's guard is up, convoluted strategies like that one are the only recourse. I think Tigari gets it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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First Being: Ok, I was not aware your scenario was a multilayered mission. It is that kind of mission that makes me excited to play an assassin. I get where your comming from. I think where the real crowdforging needs to be is the timelimit required before we can Assassinate a target. If it's to short, it's like not even seeing the Observe, but if it's too long, the target gets too much time to react. What time limit would you Non-assassins think would work? I would like it to be around 15-20 sec max (that way theirs a chance the PLAYER doesn't notice the icon). Yet if they are paying attention to the screen, they should have time to react. (this also assumes its a small icon just pops up on the screen and not something that flashes across your screen)
Second Dario: Not everyone, just the guards, then the guards start doing a /yell or whatever in chat. If copy/paste is possible in game, they should have a message like this prepared. And it's not insane to expect the guards to do this kind of thing. It's being proactive. If the guards always take the defensive stance and wait to be attacked first, they'll end up losing clientele sooner or later. Allowing people to get the jump, could cost you the fight. Most mercenary Guards will likely not be LG, or maybe even one or the other.
KC: I'm hoping its tactics just like this that are required for a proper assassination. I have no want or desire for it to be a stealth/disguise, press observe, then wait for the time then attack. I want assassinations to require Depth.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Second Dario: Not everyone, just the guards, then the guards start doing a /yell or whatever in chat. If copy/paste is possible in game, they should have a message like this prepared. And it's not insane to expect the guards to do this kind of thing. It's being proactive. If the guards always take the defensive stance and wait to be attacked first, they'll end up losing clientele sooner or later. Allowing people to get the jump, could cost you the fight. Most mercenary Guards will likely not be LG, or maybe even one or the other.
It has little to do with alignment. Players doing that will be hemorrhaging reputation as well, and will end up booted from their settlement. I certainly think they'll start moving around and trying to pierce disguises, but that's what probing attacks are for. To determine the enemy TTPs, but to suggest they'll murder anyone who doesn't comply with some thing (that for some reason the scout assassin cannot comply with), then not only are they costing themselves, but people will stop going to their settlement. You cannot cut yourself off like that and expect to succeed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Eh, it depends on who the target is I guess. For a special merchant, no. I doubt this would happen. But the settlement leader or another Vital spot to the settlement? You betcha. One or two dead bystanders is worth a settlement not falling (a possibility if some important roles fall, or makes it much easier). I guess time will tell how these scenarios will come too and be played out. Maybe the game is lucky I'm not a settlement leader, Maybe my ideas are what makes a settlement stand above the rest.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And guards would be cycled out. If its a Merc guard, the pay should be worth it, if its a Citizen guard, then hey, part of the job, and you remember what sacrifices they made for the settlement and maybe reward him. And you never know, maybe they even find that assassin whos trying to hide behind a pillar.
Edit: To add on, this shouldn't be a daily thing. Assassinations should be EXPENSIVE (well maybe a little into the game when people aren't doing it because it's new). I would think your targeted for an assassination only before/during a big war. or maybe a large Market takeover if your a merchant. (although I see SADing to come in more handy there, maybe couple with an assinatino)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding time elapsed I envision the contracting agent would negotiate with you. Say you are on retainer, so he has some confidence that you aren't going to inform his principal's enemy that they are planning an assault. He describes what he wants, and asks you how long it will take you to set up. You tell him you feel you need to get yourself and four colleagues in position with enough lead time to acclimatize the locals and lull them into inattentiveness. Say two weeks lead time. The contracting agent then knows that to coordinate properly he needs to give you a date and time span at least two weeks out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it's a little icon around his name/health bar then noticing it and realizing what it actually is would be a real test of the actual players perception skill. It isn't like the GM gets his attention and tells him point blank he better cover his behind. Its a tiny debuff icon that could easily be overlooked (or so I'm suggesting).
We don't know exactly what it will look like but I doubt a little clown pops up from his monitor with drum beats and flags waving warning him. More likely it would be an icon he would overlook while engaging in chat with a prospective envoy (ideas do pop up everywhere, don't they?).
So even if the warning is automatic that doesn't mean the seneschal will spot it and instantly comprehend what is about to unfold.
Just guessing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If it's a little icon around his name/health bar then noticing it and realizing what it actually is would be a real test of the actual players perception skill. It isn't like the GM gets his attention and tells him point blank he better cover his behind. Its a tiny debuff icon that could easily be overlooked (or so I'm suggesting).
We don't know exactly what it will look like but I doubt a little clown pops up from his monitor with drum beats and flags waving warning him. More likely it would be an icon he would overlook while engaging in chat with a prospective envoy (ideas do pop up everywhere, don't they?).
So even if the warning is automatic that doesn't mean the seneschal will spot it and instantly comprehend what is about to unfold.
Just guessing.
I had personally been assuming that the target would know almost instantly that they were being observed so long as they were in front of their computer. Otherwise it would run counter to player agency and the other combat mechanics. Especially if you are expecting very short time frames for these types of engagements.
I would hope the game's reputation and other systems would prevent the default murder every non-member around us strategy such that it would be rarely used and come with dire repercussions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In alpha, currently, you don't see your health bar unless you are engaged, as in combat or when you cast a spell. When you fight a mob you sometimes get downward-pointing chevrons on either side of your health/status bar that tell you of a debuff on you. Similarly if you cast a buff or debuff on someone those chevrons appear on their health bar If you have them targeted. Upward-pointing chevrons for a buff. If you hover your cursor over the chevron you get a little popup describing the effect.
So if the seneschal is being observed I think what it would look like to him is that his heath/status bar suddenly shows up and there would be small downward-pointing chevrons right and left. If he's watching for it he should be alerted. But if he is engaged in his chatbox or otherwise distracted he may well miss it altogether.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being, what you suggesting I can agree with. The only thing left for us to talk about is how long do we have to Observe the Target before we can "assassinate" it. I don't think we should base it off of ONE assassin, but maybe 3, 4 at max.
So with maybe 4 assassins all having observe on a target, do you think 20 seconds is enough time to be able to "assassinate" a target?
Also, don't it all exacts, (by this I mean, becuase it takes 4 Observes 20 secons, then 1 person should do it for 80 seconds). If one person is doing it, then maybe 95-100 Sec.)
I'm being on the generous side with this (or maybe realistic). If i got what I wanted it would take a group of 4 maybe 10 secons, and one person about 45. But then again, almost every one wants to see there class do well ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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For that I haven't a solution, but recommend we see what the developers have in mind.
For the final moments before a strike twenty seconds is a very long time, surely adequate if the bodyguards and primary target are worthy of their jobs. But for the whole process? Other than the time to infiltrate and set up a base of operations, actual stalking and initial observations? I'm really not sure. I do think there should be ample time for your team to get in position for the strike before the final phase, that we are thinking twenty seconds should be adequate. The interim phase when observation is about to become available but there is no warning to the quarry yet might be as long as a minute. Let the assassin's tensions build. Then the Observation is made and the alert seneschal should detect the observation, The busy seneschal...not so much. Observation phase lasts twenty seconds tops. Then the assassin team gets the Go signal and all hell breaks loose.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The "Observation" effect starts when the assassin uses their ability to start stacking observation on the target. It doesn't start when he gets close, or even when he starts to target the victim.
As long as the disguise holds, the assassin can choose the time and manner of the attack- and if he is disguised, he isn't wearing functional armor, so won't last long in a fight.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thats what we're talking about Decius. How long should assassins have to "Observe" a target before we can kill them. I don't care how long it takes them to get into place, or all ready. Once the team is staged, and where they need to be, and they pop the "Observe" skill, how long should it take before they can "assassinate" a target
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Goblin Squad Member
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It sounds like that would be a variable answer, depending on the target. Perhaps a commoner might only need 3 stacks and that only takes 3 minutes, perhaps a well armored high-level knight needs 10.
Knowing the cooldown on applying observe, and what the relative damage bonus per stack is, along with diminishing returns, would be fairly important when planning an assassination.
I am curious how the devs intend to address a target being observed by multiple sources.
- Will the target see 10 separate single stacks of observe and know there are 10 assassins after them?
- Will they simply see a single stack of 10 observes instead that appears almost instantly?
- Would a single stack of 10 observes show up in the combat log with each application so the target could later determine how many assassins were after them by gauging frequency?
- How is damage handled at that point?
- Is it just the next single strike that gets the benefit of all 10 observe stacks?
- Is each assassin responsible for executing the damage granted by their own stacks of observe, or could a wizard fireball a target and take advantage of the stacks accumulated.
- Could a wizard fireball a room of people that had each been marked individually to consume the stacks of observe?
- Could one of the target's friends attack them at single stack to minimize the possible damage output?
- Is having 10 assassins apply a single stack of observe going to be as effective as an assassin that is able to apply all ten on their own?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Thats what we're talking about Decius. How long should assassins have to "Observe" a target before we can kill them. I don't care how long it takes them to get into place, or all ready. Once the team is staged, and where they need to be, and they pop the "Observe" skill, how long should it take before they can "assassinate" a target
I don't think you should have to Observe at all. I think that the advantage of an observation should be that your initial attack(s) gain a moderate bonus to base damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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- How is damage handled at that point?
- Is it just the next single strike that gets the benefit of all 10 observe stacks?
- Is each assassin responsible for executing the damage granted by their own stacks of observe, or could a wizard fireball a target and take advantage of the stacks accumulated.
- Could a wizard fireball a room of people that had each been marked individually to consume the stacks of observe?
- Could one of the target's friends attack them at single stack to minimize the possible damage output?
My understanding is that stacks of Observed do not increase all damage against you, but certain assassin attacks will have a keyword which do additional damage based on the Observed status of the target. So you shouldn't need to worry about Fireballs interacting with the stacks, or the target's allies attacking them to pop stacks either way. I
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Goblin Squad Member
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As I said: agency is active. Passive defense is an inadequate game element. It is radically different choosing perception at the trainer four months ago from actively stalking your quarry. The 'agency' of the former is less than nothing, no benefit. The agency involved in the latter is great, and the challenge should be greater if the defense is actively working to counter and mitigate the assassin's efforts. To urge elimination of the active agency in defense is to urge a win button for the assassin.
Time for me to weigh in again.
The problem that I have with Observe the real core of the issue and the reason I made the proposal in the OP is that as an assassin I will have devoted significant resources to the assassination such that every single facet of my build is focused on that single moment when I emerge from hiding and strike down my target. In order to accomplish that goal I will have had to spend xp maximizing stealth and weapon skills, crafting skills for my assassins gear or purchasing them from another source. I will spend my time and effort sneaking in to position using all the resources at my disposal which considerable effort was expended to obtain. By passing all of the the passive perceptions scores of every single member of the settlement I pass all while flying a flag that will result in almost certain death if discovered just to have my opponents handed the knowledge that i am present even though they have failed their passive perception checks just because I used an ability that is intended to allow me to better perform my function. Its giving the target a free pass. Nothing should ever be free when it is to the detriment of another player. That is why Observe is broken in its current design.
My solution to that brokenness is elegant in its simplicity and will only need tweaks to balance the bonus applied to the perception check with repeated uses.
on Target Agency: In a political game such as this, a prominent settlement member whose assassination will incur DI penalties to the settlement, has agency in his ability to recruit a body of guardsmen and to plan for the eventuality of assassination as a certainty. By surrounding yourself with others who can intervene in the event of an attack, opportunity for an assassination will be very slim indeed. If all the positive meaningful interaction the hiring of guards entails is not enough agency for you then the simple solution would be for party members to benefit from the Aid another circumstance bonus when perception checks are called for. A cumulative +2 bonus to each members perception check for each other member of the party in addition to the bonus descibed in the original proposal for additional stacks of observed should be sufficient.