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That could work. One thing I had been considering was to allow Rogues to do a Feint maneuver as a swift action as a basic class skill. Simular to how an Inquisitor's judgement works. And give the rogue a +1 to feint every other level that capped out at +10 at level 20. That way when a rogue is fighting alone they have the feel of a fast, dirty fighter.
The rogue's problems aren't damage. I'm not really a big fan of giving them maximized damage on their sneak attack. I've seen a few good rogue reworks that had sneak attack simply do +3 damage.
Witch's Knight casts Wall of Text
Thematically I've always loved the idea of giving rogues an increased threat range when they sneak attack but, mechanically, the bonus dice or straight bonus damage is better in the end. Which is too bad, because if you made rogues the ultimate crit monkeys and then gave them access to the critical feat chains, they would actually start to feel like deadly assassins. Of course, if you want to play an assassin, the new Slayer class in the Advanced Class Guide is a full BAB rogue with some ranger bonuses tacked on. Win.
I agree that damage is an issue for the rogue but, in my opinion, the rogue has always been the utility guy, and the feature that really makes the rogue suffer in that role is rogue talents. They're absolutely terrible, especially when compared to things like rage powers or magus arcana. Personally, I think the rogue should be given the Inspiration ability of the investigator (also from the ACG), and another fix I've seen gave rogues "skill tricks" that allowed them to duplicate certain spell effects with a high enough skill check, like having a very high Bluff or Diplomacy roll function as Charm Person, or a very high Sense Motive roll as Zone of Truth or Detect Thoughts.
I also agree with Nimon's suggestion for allowing rogues to Feint more effectively (e.g. without having to burn a move action). I mean, you can "feint" more effectively if you focus on Dirty Trick (Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick, Quick Dirty Trick) than if you focus on Feint, which doesn't allow feinting as an attack action at all unless you're a TWFer and go for Improved Two-Weapon Feint, which is a full five-feat investment.
I have lots of rants about Feint and how subpar it is compared to other options (I'm looking at you, Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses/Deadly Stroke) but, getting back on topic, I think the idea to swap sneak attack dice for straight bonus damage is a good one. One of the things to keep in mind with that idea is that, unless they are specified as precision damage, flat bonuses are multiplied on a critical hit. Changing to a flat bonus will make for moderately improved and consistent damage if it doesn't multiply on a critical hit, but if it does multiply on a critical hit then you're looking at a very big upswing in damage for the rogue, especially on TWF builds.
Also, I'd reconsider the number for the bonus. Maxing out SA damage is a really, really big deal. You're talking about a 10th level rogue with a mundane dagger and no strength bonus dealing 1d4+30 damage on a regular sneak attack. Even a smiting paladin can't match that, and paladins don't tend to be TWFing blenders of death. I would probably suggest swapping each dice for +2 or +3 damage. That's +10 or +15 at level 10, and if you left it at +2 then having it multiply on a crit would be just about right. If you'd like, I can run some numbers in my DPR calculator later today when I get a minute to show you what the difference would be.
TL;DR I agree that the rogue has issues, but I think damage is not the biggest issue, and I furthermore think that, while your suggestion has merit, it needs tweaking.
I feel that at least part of the rogue's problem is damage. After all, I feel like the rogue should be the best option for playing a traditional "Assassin" type character, and that means the ability to stab someone to death.
Try to find an effect that you can get that makes a target helpless in some fashion then coup de grace. It's faster than the prc assassin's ability. I would recommend poison, but the ones that work well cost too much.
There are also other fixes.
To add to Witch's Knight and Te'Shen sentiments, I do not consider someone who simply does a lot of damage to a target an "assassin." An assassin performs a utility function. They take out a target before combat rather than during combat. Their goal is to cripple the enemy by ensuring they cannot benefit from their most valuable units.
The spy from Team Fortress 2 is an excellent example of a rogueish character. He does not excel in combat. Instead, he performs a utility function by sabotaging the enemy, disabling their defenses and assassinating valuable targets before they reach the battle field. In cases where he must fight a target, he excels best in an isolated duel.
As a result, my vision of the rogue is someone who excels in the surprise round or before a battle starts. Someone who sneaks in and picks off a few loners to lessen the enemy numbers before the party assaults a camp. Someone who starts a fight by disabling the enemy's mage or toughest fighter. Such a person needs the tools to sneak up on someone, disable them with a surprise attack, finish them off if it fails, and then get away or participle at least competently in battle.
The rogue, as written, does none of this. Sneak attack only does damage in a game where a unit can fight to full capacity as long as they have more than zero hitpoints. The rogue is not anymore stealthy or capable of escaping as other classes. In fact, several classes are better at accomplishing the above tasks, some capable of doing it without putting themselves at risk. And when a battle does start, the rogue does very little damage unless he flanks. In fact, it's kind of backwards. I feel like the rogue should should be someone who excels at taking out a lone target, not someone who has to flank to have any usefulness in combat.
This is my vision of an assassin-type rogue. As a result, a guy who simply gets bonus damage against a flanked target does not fit the description.
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Sorry , rogue need no buff...
They are amazing skill users - meaning there off game is great .
They do nice high damage normally and can add a lot of de buffs .
The fix they needed was given via archetypes.
A thug can have str of 18 and full plate ( 1dip fighter ) for decent damage as one attack.
Scare, shake, sicken, bleed, cripple without saves .The only fix they need , in my eyes, is using dex for damage ( special rogue talent maybe ?) because oddly str rogue > dex users ( except maybe knife master scout )
The thug/ scout / 1fighter / sap mastering can earth break insane damage .
Full Plate? There goes your awesome skills. Unless you are talking about house ruleing that they are not effected by the heavy hit to skills when wearing such armor.
Archetypes do improve a rogue and allow you to make one closer to what you want. The build you are suggesting really takes away from the thing you said was their best quality Skill Users If you dump Dex for Str, there goes a lot of your "roguish" skills, on top of the fact you are now in full plate for some reason trying to sneak and disarm traps.
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You're missing the point. Sneak Attack is not the problem. It's probably the one thing that actually works for Rogues, it's just not good enough to be a class' one and only offensive tool.
Increasing Sneak Attack damage is like trying to buff Fighters by increasing their damage output. It's technically a improvement, but it misses the whole reason why the class is underpowered.
The real problem with Rogues are:
1- Low Accuracy: They are the only medium class BAB with no means of boosting their to-hit.
2- Poor to Mediocre AC and CMD: A Finesse Rogue can have a okay-ish defense, and Offensive Defense can make a Rogue's AC really good against a single enemy, but other than that... They are screwed.
3- HORRIBLE Saves: This is probably the greatest weakness of the class. Having both bad Fort and Will save progression is not just a minor problem, it's a crippling weakness. Basically a death sentence past 7th level or so.
4- Redundancy: There are at least half a dozen classes that make Rogues completely pointless. And not in a "they have similar roles so there is no need of having both classes in the same party" way, no. It's much closer to "These 6 classes can completely outperform Rogues in 90% of the situations without even trying". Rogues have nothing unique and are not even particularly good at being rogues.
5- Sneak Attack Dependency: Sneak Attack is not a bad class feature, but it's not nearly good enough to be a class' only offensive tool. Rogues who can't Sneak Attack for whatever reason are about as useful in combat as an Expert. This makes them extremely predictable and one-dimensional.
Rogues don't need help with Sneak Attack damage, they need help with everything else!
Lemmy's revised Rogue does a fantastic job on rebalancing the rogue without making it "broken".
EDIT: Oh hey Lemmy.
Hey there! Now go back to One Step Beyond! ;)
Sorry 666bender, but I have to disagree. The rogue is a joke, and a bad one at that. Has been for a while now. Anything a rogue can do, someone else can do better. Even if you took away a bard's spells or an alchemist's extracts, they would be better tanks, DPR, and skill monkeys than the rogue. A barbarian can be as good as a rogue at stealth, and better at many physical skills if he's willing to burn a round of rage to do it, and he'll breeze past the rogue in combat. Anybody with spells makes the rogue's skill checks completely obsolete after 6th or 7th level. The only three classes with less out-of-combat utility than the rogue are the fighter, the monk, and the paladin.
The only things that the rogue has going for it are a wide variety of skills and good (but painfully situational) burst damage. Add to that the fact that Dex-based builds are inherently weaker than Str-based builds, and it's time to accept that the rogue as a stealthy saboteur and dangerous fighter is just wishful thinking.
Seriously, between the investigator and the slayer from the APG, the rogue's niche has been officially destroyed. It needs all the help it can get.
Edit I see the thread has moved forward while I was typing . . .
I am intrigued by your rogue revision, Lemmy. Excuse me while I dig in.
You're missing the point. Sneak Attack is not the problem. It's probably the one thing that actually works for Rogues, it's just not good enough to be a class' one and only offensive tool.
Increasing Sneak Attack damage is like trying to buff Fighters by increasing their damage output. It's technically a improvement, but it misses the whole reason why the class is underpowered.
The real problem with Rogues are:
1- Low Accuracy: They are the only medium class BAB with no means of boosting their to-hit.
2- Poor to Mediocre AC and CMD: A Finesse Rogue can have a okay-ish defense, and Offensive Defense can make a Rogue's AC really good against a single enemy, but other than that... They are screwed.
3- HORRIBLE Saves: This is probably the greatest weakness of the class. Having both bad Fort and Will save progression is not just a minor problem, it's a crippling weakness. Basically a death sentence past 7th level or so.
4- Redundancy: There are at least half a dozen classes that make Rogues completely pointless. And not in a "they have similar roles so there is no need of having both classes in the same party" way, no. It's much closer to "These 6 classes can completely outperform Rogues in 90% of the situations without even trying". Rogues have nothing unique and are not even particularly good at being rogues.
5- Sneak Attack Dependency: Sneak Attack is not a bad class feature, but it's not nearly good enough to be a class' only offensive tool. Rogues who can't Sneak Attack for whatever reason are about as useful in combat as an Expert. This makes them extremely predictable and one-dimensional.Rogues don't need help with Sneak Attack damage, they need help with everything else!
I agree but want to add that SA is also a problem.
Also rogue talents are weak.
Pretty much most stuff with the class is problematic.
I've been wanting to try out a house rule that allows for sneak attack to basically turn into a precision type attack. Usable so many times per day based on X + Int and giving them class level as BAB for it. Or giving them a built in feint that can possibly last multiple rounds. Also giving them some of the ranger traps as per the trapper archetype every 3 or 4 levels.
Nice, Lemmy. I wonder, have you considered adding any new talents? For instance, I've felt for a while now that rogues should have Canny Defense, and it could fit well as a talent.
Sneak Attack is not a problem if the character has other alternatives to it. Vivisectionists and Slayers work because SA is not their main class feature, just an additional option.
Rogue Talents being weak is more of a case about the Rogue's class feature doing little to nothing to compensate for its shortcomings.
Basically, Rogues get a bunch of secondary abilities and pretend they are good enough to be defining class features.
You're missing the point. Sneak Attack is not the problem. It's probably the one thing that actually works for Rogues, it's just not good enough to be a class' one and only offensive tool.
Increasing Sneak Attack damage is like trying to buff Fighters by increasing their damage output. It's technically a improvement, but it misses the whole reason why the class is underpowered.
The real problem with Rogues are:
1- Low Accuracy: They are the only medium class BAB with no means of boosting their to-hit.
2- Poor to Mediocre AC and CMD: A Finesse Rogue can have a okay-ish defense, and Offensive Defense can make a Rogue's AC really good against a single enemy, but other than that... They are screwed.
3- HORRIBLE Saves: This is probably the greatest weakness of the class. Having both bad Fort and Will save progression is not just a minor problem, it's a crippling weakness. Basically a death sentence past 7th level or so.
4- Redundancy: There are at least half a dozen classes that make Rogues completely pointless. And not in a "they have similar roles so there is no need of having both classes in the same party" way, no. It's much closer to "These 6 classes can completely outperform Rogues in 90% of the situations without even trying". Rogues have nothing unique and are not even particularly good at being rogues.
5- Sneak Attack Dependency: Sneak Attack is not a bad class feature, but it's not nearly good enough to be a class' only offensive tool. Rogues who can't Sneak Attack for whatever reason are about as useful in combat as an Expert. This makes them extremely predictable and one-dimensional.Rogues don't need help with Sneak Attack damage, they need help with everything else!
I'd also like to add another item. For a 3/4 BAB class with no spellcasting, the rogue doesn't have many class features. They have sneak attack, trapfinding, talents, and that's about it. They have about as many class features as the barbarian, and yet the barbarian has a full BAB, the best Hit Die in the game, and their rage powers are way better than talents and let the barbarian do things most other classes cannot.
It's also why I roll my eyes at people saying the rogue was trashed solely because of archetypes taking their features. If you steal animal companion and wildshape, the druid still has 9-level casting and other cool abilities. If you steal spellstrike and spell combat, a magus still has magus arcana, spell recall, and the ability to cast spells in heavy armor. What does the rogue have if you take away sneak attack and trapfinding? Next to nothing, because that's all they gave him.
Nice, Lemmy. I wonder, have you considered adding any new talents? For instance, I've felt for a while now that rogues should have Canny Defense, and it could fit well as a talent.
Sorry, I hadn't seen this post.
I'm constantly updating the homebrew. Usually adding or slightly tweaking Rogue Talents. I thought about adding a couple archetypes too, one of which would grant Canny Defense (Based on either Cha or Int, probably leave the choice to the player).
I'm also working on a few other homebrews, so it's difficult to spend as much time on Rogues.
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Just a moment's food for thought: all and any re-imagining of the rogue class (and classes in general) should try to not solve all the problems of the class. Building a level of weakness into the class (and perhaps compensating for it elsewhere in the class) helps to diversify the class.
There is a difference between "solving the class problems" and "removing all its weaknesses and allowing them do everything".
I believe my homebrew Rogue fix solves most of the Rogues problems, but does not remove all of their weaknesses and certainly doesn't allow them do do everything.
The main problem with Rogue is not that they are less effective than other classes, but that they are less effective than they should be to function. Their awful defenses and mediocre-to-bad offense is simply too much of a burden. Having a few extra skill points and Trapfinding doesn't come even close to compensating.
I've literally seen players (including the Rogue player himself) decide it was best to let the character die than keep wasting resources to keep it alive. The Rogue player then built a bard and proceeded to be much more useful and have much more fun.
If you were a cleric, would you trade away full casting and channeling for 6 more skill points per level and sneak attack?