Goblin Squad Member
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I figured I'd post this here. Werewolves are powerful creatures and any implementation should involve some of that power. They also need powerful drawbacks that make them a non-obvious choice for every player though. This is something that games like Elder Scrolls Online fail to do and it results in a massively overgrown population of werewolves.
Yes, the core concept is exactly right: Werewolves have certain powers (the beast) and certain downsides (curse). I need to work more on the archetype discussion of werewolves but that is the basic outline and it's also highly practical for scaling up too.
The list of downsides and upsides and integration with other aspects of the game listed are really great ideas. But, we have the germ of an idea and that is in our timeline our beginning to begin phase. The list will include items that are as per above A... -> @D. IE far down the line. So we need to step along the process. I hope to elaborate on this and also comment on the list shortly to keep the conversation going.
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Goblin Squad Member
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1. You are flagged as heinous while in hybrid form (and for a short period of time after you go back to your human form), allowing all players to attack you free of consequence.
2. Werewolves are automatically entered into the werewolf faction and constantly flagged "for the cause" allowing players of opposing factions to hunt them at all times.
3. Werewolves cannot see any player or company information on non-hybrid form players while in hybrid form.
4. There is a substantial debuff that is applied if they remain in the proximity of a non-hybrid form player for too long. (Making it very hard for your non-werewolf buddies to scout for you and encouraging you to kill or flee from nearby players.)
5. All NPC-city guards automatically attack hybrid form werewolves on sight and there is an unrest penalty to player settlements and POI's that don't set their guards to do so as well.
6. There are certain special attacks and damage types which are only useable or do additional effects against werewolves and other monsters, that wouldn't effect a regular player the same way.
7. Werewolf skills require standing with the werewolf faction, and are only trainable at werewolf POIs.
8. There are incentives for opposing factions to destroy werewolf POIs.
9. Werewolf POIs are only constructable in a certain part of the map. (Possibly an area of Ustalav opened up in an expansion)
10. Most actions that generate werewolf faction standing are chaotic and/or evil.
11. There are certain things (random chance on taking damage, full moon night, etc.) that may involuntarily force a change into hybrid form.
12. There are other things (trueform spell, etc.) that may involantarily force a change into human form.
13. Hybrid and animal form take up a weapon slot. In addition any hybrid/animal form specific abilities not on the weapons bar aren't usable outside those forms.
Just to categorize these:-
1. Flag
2. Faction (NPC)
3. GUI
4. Exploit mechanic?
5. NPC Guard reaction and settlement debuff
6. Eg Silver weapons or holy?
7. Progression
8. Faction status
9. POI relation
10. Alignment
11. Force change
12. Equip
I really like the heinous flagging idea of 1. That's something we could work towards fairly early on.
Had not considered the Faction system the devs are considering. It seems like a natural fit for creating pvp opportunities. However need to consider it more from our basic concept ie first principles.
Alignment we need to calculate this. Again from the basic concept I'd argue theoretically that ANY alignment can be a werewolf as it's a temporary alter-ego and this expands the concept to be a form of curse. I think it might be interesting for different players of different alignments to contend with this curse variously, I like the idea different players will make different choices or slide in alignment with the consequences of keeping the curse. Lots to discuss on this topic, so I'd not necessarily restrict it, but we may find PRACTICALLY certain evil/chaotic (as per the Grimoire) tend to suit werewolf characters. We'll need to start with an open mind / blank slate on this topic and see how it plays out and how different characters can regulate their alignment/reputation hits (in the early days when our concept is operating independently of the systems).
Some of the more sophisticated ideas eg "exploit mechanic" and "settlement debuff" and "POI" and "force change" I'm not going to comment on at this time due to their potential implementation complexity, which is something have to postpone if the werewolf concept takes off. Part of the cooperative will be crowdforging in a way where members participate in bringing werewolves into the game operationally which in terms creates a platform for potential popularity (directly and indirectly) before we can then proceed with more ambitious. Some of these are cool ideas however and need to be added to a list for future reference, I go with?
Again coming to eg Silver weapons or the related ilk, this may come before any of the above as if we first increase our popularity as integrating beneficially with the economoy of the game and requiring less (an educated guess) resources to implement but wider effects and positive on the economy.
Progress has substantial meat to chew on for our cooperative. Reading the Grimoire there are a ton of feats and abilities and integrating the "power balanced by the curse" concept as above but also some really really cool stuff where were we to achieve these our cooperative might be considered very successful initiative indeed.
The other topic mentioned a lot but not specifically discussed is "hybrid vs wolf" forms. I think we'll be doing well to get a wolf form implemented initially as MVP to work with. In the Werewolf culture the two forms sort of are inter-changeable. For example comparing, "An American Werewolf in London" the form is more wolf-like and even described by eye-witnesses as mistakenly some sort of wolf-dog iirc. Whereas comparing to the other greatly entertaining modern werewolf movie, "Dog Soldiers" (based in Scotland this time!) the Hybrid form is very much chosen and equally engaging. However for practical implementation I think a basic wolf would be a good goal to initially set for ourselves and develop from for reasons to expanded on later.
Great post, Andius, required a couple of responses, mostly discursive in nature, but there's plenty of material to work with here.
Edit: Spotted a few grammatical errors etc, but feeling dog tired as hiking most of all of today. I spent a little time tracking some deer marks too! And the thought of some mechanic (no matter how fanciful that might be!) of tracking for werewolves in game really gives me goosebumps!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmmmmm. The impression I have is that this agreement has no diplomatic stances, unified positions on other creatures, or even unification among itself on any point other than that it's a loose cooperation of people roleplaying lycanthropes/who want to see lycanthropy added to the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And where, pray tell, do us... other "denizens of the night/lower planes" reside in relation to this agreement, hmm?
It's a good question. Because in conversation we need to step-back from the details and remember the "why?" concepts that led us into the discussion, in the first place.
In the previous thread I made the distinction in which categorization of cast of actors we can assemble: The Once and Future Game: "Theatre of the Mind" or Crunchy System?
1. Main Cast = Main Races (full-progression ie character's journey is always going to be 100% scope and hence the devs main form of focus of development (and monetization)).
2. Support Cast = Alternative Races. These are anywhere from 100% to somewhat more restricted according to lore but probably/possibly could be considered future additions eg Goblin Alignment restrictions.
Now looking at the above most of them (iirc) are part of the Civilization <=> Wilderness dynamic equilibrium. Our characters in a fantastical world where perhaps our races are knocked off their totem-pole top position as most powerful beings have to continually war and push back the wilderness and more.
I think some of the Support Cast and some of:
3. Other Cast
could be interesting to explore as additions to players developing characters. The thing is they would probably need to be restricted in population and progression as side-additions for players to enjoy ie side-plots to the main plot of the above Civilization vs Wilderness Plot.
Hence any of the templates eg Vampires, Werewolves, Liches and as many more as can be conceived would be interesting to look into.
Andius posted on this subject with respect to tapping this part of the player market since WOD was discontinued, PFO could provide something here potentially.
So there may be a good "why?" but the question then becomes as important if not more so: "How?". In this thread (dare to tread) Crowdforging: The Player Cooperative + Goblinworks Franchise Licenses TL;DR I proposed a general method for any of these concepts and a specific solution (perhaps the general method is more significant?) using as an exemplar werewolves specifically.
To note with emphasis:-
1. Each concept has it's own specific requirements and conditions
2. Each concept may vary in the challenge of implementation (how).
3. Possibly, werewolves may be one of the easier (but still extremely challenging) concepts to attempt to develop via the above approach, which Andius more or less nails correctly:-
-snip-...that it's a loose cooperation of people roleplaying lycanthropes/who want to see lycanthropy added to the game.
I think I gave a fair answer to Doggan on this previously albeit the superstition and fear of the werewolf proceeds us and makes acceptance and understanding of our existence more challenging and met with predictable hostility & fear! ;) But again to be clear, what we attempt to do is RP as a sort of "leaky abstraction" and forge our own rules and thereby our own fun. Of course this is the "in-group" part of the cooperative's work. The "out-group" part of the cooperative's work (should and) will involve other players groups.
Secondly to increase our chances of success, we'll need to "inherit" as much redundancy from current design (Andius provided an excellent eg above concerning the "heinous flag") as possible and that will be added to the Cooperatives operations, to summarize conveniently:-
1. RP werewolves in the basic under-developed capacity using our own creativity.
2. Cooperate across the community
3. Crowdforge "intra" with members (as well as the more universal crowdforging across the entire community).
4. If we achieve success prove a possible model for other initiatives of other concepts ie trail-blaze.
5. Set a goal of an MVP werewolf implementation
6. Grow support atst as balanced with correct concept ie not a themepark solution to the introduction of werewolves but a genuine sandbox solution. Has any game ever achieved this?
7. Build a werewolf and community resource for this franchise and attempt to work something out with Goblinworks if we prove successful; using such 3rd party practices as Paizo already makes use of in the TT but applied to PFO. (7's a portentous number!).
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Goblin Squad Member
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##General Notice##
I might use this thread for general purpose blogging as material to then transfer to a more established site. It may be of interest or not and if not the "∅" can be used which sits next to each thread title, in the forum; but hopefully not.
##Werewolf from first principles##
There's a couple of different approaches:-
1. Archetypal
2. Folk lore and myths (possible builds on 1 but likely also introduces independent elements??)
3. Popular culture's conventions (eg literature, movies and TT which likely builds on 1-2)
4. Paizo's supported material (which likely builds on 1-3)
5. Approximating all the above to fit PFO appropriately
=
I came across a couple of theories but will develop a general summary here that goes through the process of 1-4, with a view to formalizing for 5.
This I'll interprete** as the primary theory and tag:-
A: "The Call of the Wild"
1. The wolf as an equal top predator with shared characteristics eg hunting in a team, deeply caring of the young and the pack, territorial but free and wild and in harmony with it's primal instincts. Possibly people respected the wolf and feared it in equal measure for millenia when our ancestors first crossed paths with them. Particularly our hunters who may have observed at first hand the wolf's tactical hunting as a pack and careful companionship. They must have recognized the expressiveness of the wolf also as a social animal with upwards of 24 different types of communication categorizations.
1. During humanity's trajectory through history during our "hunter-gather" stage we probably elevated the wolf as an equal and to be respected as well as feared as the top predator. But when the time of settlements came and people became more remote from the land, then both the schism in our "self-aware" consciousness (ie separate from nature) and our actual environmental remoteness from the wild increased our separation and possibly distrust/estrangement? Equally our domestication of herding animals changed our view of the wolf from respected rival to dangerous and damaging enemy?!
2. It seems the transition from pagan belief systems to more montheistic systems also left little and less room for the wolf (and other archetypes) and their conversation toward's for easy example "the devil's dog" became more established. For example the wolf has a place in the Greek/Roman Pantheon alongside Artemis (The Goddess of the Hunt and Moon) whereas the concept of the "wolf in sheep's clothing" that appears to have spread with Christianity changed the wolf's role to that of slavering, deceptive predator, ie the wolf within (coincidentally the recent movie: "The wolf of wallstreet").
1. & 2. However different regions and different cultures have emphasized different aspects of the wolf as representative or significant such as it's virtues as a powerful hunter in harmony with nature or it's strong nurturing instincts (such as Romulus and Remus) and family bond that ensures the success of the pack to it's other role as a insatiable and murdurous predator of more sheep-like and peaceful neighbours. Therefore all these seem to hold some currency and relevance depending on what is emphasized.
1. During the Middle Ages it appears that possibly wolves were hunted and their populations (at least in Europe) were reduced to the wildernesses far away from civilization. However the memory in folklore and culture of the wolf persisted even if the actual wolf became more distant.
2. Here we enter more of the folkloric formation of the werewolf stage (which from Anglo-Saxon is "were = man(kind) ie human kind" and wolf so human-wolf effectively). This was not the first time that the human brain combined disparate images eg the wings of say swans with people or in ancient Greece, King Lycaon was the origin of "Lycanthrope" a combination of "lycos = wolf" and suffix of "human = thrope". In this myth the king provided some chopped up humans for his guest Zeus whom he suspected of being to trick him which angered the god so much he turned the king and his sons/family into wolves.
1. & 2. These stories may have gained more traction when during drunken and drug-fuelled revelries or even the symptoms of psychopaths some people were found brutally murdered in a fashion wholley macabre and savage and without rationale reason for example possibly and more often enacted by males on women and/or children. And this then feeds into the concept of the ravening wolf (which harks back to the Edda's Fenris wolf) of blood-lust out of control / balance in the developed warrior? Hence a certain "Jungian" approach to the concept of the werewolf might have developed including the superstitious origins of wolfsbane (which may have been used to actually poison wolves) or the combination of wolves howling at the moon and increased excitement and crime in settlements during the full moon (recent scientific research into stats combining a Friday night and a full moon eg) or perhaps explanations for some medical conditions exhibited from different bouts of psychosis (eg delusion) or especially vulpine features and hairyness (ie visual features as well as psychological).
3. Entering the popular culture a century and a half or so ago, along with other such monstrous figures (eg vampires, ghosts etc), werewolves went through a standardization. Fortunately unlike Vampires (as per TVTropes) they did not go through a revision:
Werewolves did not receive the same revisionist treatment as vampires did during the 90's... Partially this is due to the high probability of Special Effect Failure in visual media, but also because the concept is much more difficult to revise (even with today's computer SFX). Having your neck bitten by beautiful people is erotic, being torn into bloody chunks and eaten is not. And in most common depictions, werewolves aren't exactly sapient in their beast / wolf-form. Hence they're often relegated to supporting roles in Fur Against Fang plotlines and Fantasy Kitchen Sink settings. Oddly enough, such an earlier revisionist treatment happened in medieval times for fictious werewolves; in the Chivalric Romance, a werewolf could be a perfectly gentle and noble beast.
However, recently the werewolf's cachet has been rising.
TVTropes alert! has done a super job here. And independently also mention the supporting role, their analysis page is one of the best summaries of the popularization and standardization (albeit with variations):-
Analysis: Our Werewolves Are different
- Cause of Lycanthropy
- What forms do they become?
- When do they transform?
- Self-Control While Transformed
- Weaknesses
- Cure for Lycanthropy
- Relationship with "real" wolves
- Other Common Characteristics of Werewolves
Also for a list of Werewolf Works in popular culture and at the wikipedia entry for werewolf too, which explores much of the above in a wider less synthesized form.
=
Here is a rough draft of 1-3. I've attempted to "keep to the point" and avoid a full academic treatment (no matter how tempting) as most applicable to our objective for PFO (ie 5.). Also the above summary as useful and culled information for our cooperative to use as the body of information to usefully refer to (when draft turns to finished article, with references) without loosing where everyone is referring to; as a key objective in crowdforging will be to provide equal discussion for all members to contribute (1.-3.) towards the next phase (5.), post (4.).
This post covers in draft 1.-3. The next "blog entry" will have to access Paizo and Paizo's 3rd party contributor's own treatments as applied to the TT game, of which there is a fair body both for Pathfinder and 3.5/OGL and to dissect the decisions those creators have taken and why and what lessons we can learn.
But no doubt before that there is ample opportunity for all to discuss the above. One final reference of particular use in the above: Jungian Archetype of the wolf – gods and godnesses, warriors and mothers, demons and outlaws, evil and uebermensch
**Note: I'll reference properly these theories when they make the transition over to a finished source and make corrections. These are more summarized notes atm.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By the way. Could you register on our site Aveno?
I have a few things related to this proposal I'd like to discuss with you but your private messages on the Paizo boards are disabled.
Done.
Also done a quick skim of the Grimoire for the next blog on werewolves tomorrow (!).
I have a theory for the first question too "Origins" of werewolves in the River Kingdoms that integrates lore, RP and the actual in-game development (already alluded to). Which is a befitting first topic for the cooperative to crowdforge together!
Then I'll target "aligned" player groups that seem to fall fully within the werewolf venn diagram and then expand on invitations from there if that first membership phase is consolidated which may take some time (which we have plenty of to play with!!).
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Thanks to the support of Woodlands and Rivers Environmental Company and The Viridian Circle Charitable Foundation, AvenaOats has been running a captive werewolf project since December 2011 to help find out more about how this long-lost, predatory monster can enhance the landscape and aid the biodiversity of the region.
The first phase of the "Wild Werewolf Project" is complete and two years’ worth of valuable data has already been collected and analysed.
At this point I confess I was expecting a news update that Avena was missing from her remote campsite and local officials were mounting a search and rescue operation...
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Goblin Squad Member
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At this point I confess I was expecting a news update that Avena was missing from her remote campsite and local officials were mounting a search and rescue operation......Thanks to the support of Woodlands and Rivers Environmental Company and The Viridian Circle Charitable Foundation, AvenaOats has been running a captive werewolf project since December 2011 to help find out more about how this long-lost, predatory monster can enhance the landscape and aid the biodiversity of the region.
The first phase of the "Wild Werewolf Project" is complete and two years’ worth of valuable data has already been collected and analysed.
Dang. Missed opportunity there!
Btw Being, with your Druidic leanings and other, more esoteric learnings, you are automatically invited to join the cooperative in any capacity you so wish to choose.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This sounds like fun! I was already planning on going down the druid path, for the opportunity for just this kind of RP. I am not sure I need a corpse eating mechanic. I'll just say my character eats it regardless, but I wouldn't mind it.
Anyhow I'd gladly stand by this cause.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, for what it is worth... I think I can put TVCs support into this, obviously not with the consent of Blackwood Glade, but hey.
As long as you keep those pesky vampires and liches out of this we should be find. And if you do include them we only ask to provide them with a ten-foot pole, the better to keep TVC back a bit.
Is there anywhere in particular I can go to discuss this matter with you all?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Moridian: Please feel very welcome to be a part of the cooperative! One objective is for this to become an in-game "player event" per full moon.
So I gathered. I had considered a thing like this a while back, though I never really got it past the initial stages, because I suspected a lack of interest. But I'd gladly shed blood with you, each and every moon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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<.< she is only once a OOOHHHHHHHHH
seriously though, what is the perspective on pain during transformations? Each time, more over time? less over time?
What about insanity? Loss of control?
In my opinion, pain everytime.
Insanity... hmmm yeah why not.
Loss of control... well I guess that goes with the insanity, right? But at the same time... I'll say no...
My way of doing it would be, as you said, giving the were a pvp-ffa flag and having everyone tagged pvp for them as well. Then change their name to a generic name, e.g. Werewolf001, Werewolf071, etc. Then leave the choice of "kill everyone or not" to the player.
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Pathfinder lycanthropes are often depicted wearing clothing or armor however the depictions I've seen also show it being torn/stretched. I would say a good downside would be that all your gear minus weapons and possibly amulets get turned into "Tattered (Item name)" or something of the sort, lose most of it's effectiveness, and remain that way after you transform back.
One cool part about this is since it loses most (but not all) of it's effectiveness that actually disincentives a werewolf to remove all their gear before transformation. 25-50% effective gear is still gear and you're going to be a lot weaker in hybrid form if you don't just eat the penalty and accept the damage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, for what it is worth... I think I can put TVCs support into this, obviously not with the consent of Blackwood Glade, but hey.
As long as you keep those pesky vampires and liches out of this we should be find. And if you do include them we only ask to provide them with a ten-foot pole, the better to keep TVC back a bit.
Is there anywhere in particular I can go to discuss this matter with you all?
I provided an answer of sorts in the other forum. We're apolitical, but ideally I'll take up Andius' coordination offer with a standard website to set up a basic "full program, faq, description, how we fit in with other groups, membership, calendar and so on..." But in the meantime I'll try to work on developing a website from scratch as a personal project. This dual-approach seems the best method to go for.
Haha, our cooperative will have our hands full with werewolves. If anyone is ingenious enough to be able to create a presentation for other character concepts that are workable for implimentation we are all ears (and claws/jaws). But werewolves are partly as per Andius a rich part of the market to choose but also the stars appear to align on their potential for PFO more strongly, that I can make out.
I realize nature vs supernatural will be a constant dichotomy in the development of our werewolf story. To begin with, we'll form the story grounded more in our player's place in the RK's and it will derive from there into an excellent tale (pun intended). :)
So I gathered. I had considered a thing like this a while back, though I never really got it past the initial stages, because I suspected a lack of interest. But I'd gladly shed blood with you, each and every moon.
I remember some of your input and discussion along these lines in fact albeit perhaps in another but related form. If we pool together all the common interests then we might be able to over-perform in our efforts. I think low interest initially is not a problem, it's more to our member's benefit according to how we will organized and what opportunities as a group we can provide to members. That is the plan along with feasting being an important component each (and every!) full moon. I hope we can share stories of what prey is pulled down for example.
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Goblin Squad Member
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<.< she is only once a OOOHHHHHHHHH
seriously though, what is the perspective on pain during transformations? Each time, more over time? less over time?
What about insanity? Loss of control?
In my opinion, pain everytime.
Insanity... hmmm yeah why not.
Loss of control... well I guess that goes with the insanity, right? But at the same time... I'll say no...
My way of doing it would be, as you said, giving the were a pvp-ffa flag and having everyone tagged pvp for them as well. Then change their name to a generic name, e.g. Werewolf001, Werewolf071, etc. Then leave the choice of "kill everyone or not" to the player.
This is nicely summarized in the TVTropes analysis page. We'll try to set up a similar analysis fully applied to PFO. But these core topics hit the right notes on what we need to discuss to bring werewolves to life in PFO.
* Transformation is very important to the lore. It will be an end-goal of our cooperative I think. It will be inserted into the "graphical" category of goals. Again Full Moon appearing at the appropriate time in-game is also another "essential" in the "graphical" catagory.
* Self-Control We can perform both "insanity" and "loss of control" or a combination of the same thing (lol) via performance ie RP and thus through volition player behaviour. This is immediately part of the focus of the cooperative's goals. Graphics costs money to develop, whereas our cooperative will use a range of RP tools. This will not probably be available immediately either however, but there is a solution for that already in the works which will come under our "Origins Story" that all members can enjoy and start having fun operating from that basis. :)
* Flag We'll get flagged as per the redundancy of being an attacker so the flag should actually already aid us. The real question we need hard data on is the reputation and alignment shifts for our members and an assessment on that measure.
* Anonymity Don't know yet about anonymity, there may be good reasons not to be even if IC it would be cracking fun. Think this one might need careful consideration. Seeing as we won't have the option for a while not going to focus too much on it. Other players may know our werewolf proclivities but they'll know we're only operating under this geas during the full moon too or least that will be worked on via the cooperative side of our group.
It also pretty much classic that lycanthropes are completely naked when they "turn back".
Yeah, this could fit really well into the concept as above applied to PFO's equipment system of characters. Far in the future, if we have our role, we could attempt to crowdforge this that we don't carry equipment in preparenedness to transform and may even untransform naked in some place as further elaboration of the nature of the werewolf. At first we'll make use of what we have actually got and that won't include this, but we could voluntarily implement it as per our RP as decided by the cooperative's members.
Pathfinder lycanthropes are often depicted wearing clothing or armor however the depictions I've seen also show it being torn/stretched. I would say a good downside would be that all your gear minus weapons and possibly amulets get turned into "Tattered (Item name)" or something of the sort, lose most of it's effectiveness, and remain that way after you transform back.
One cool part about this is since it loses most (but not all) of it's effectiveness that actually disincentives a werewolf to remove all their gear before transformation. 25-50% effective gear is still gear and you're going to be a lot weaker in hybrid form if you don't just eat the penalty and accept the damage.
That's interesting info/take on the werewolf concept. We'll probably start with the wolf form in which case we'll operate a policy. In time we might even gain a crowdforged "you remove all equipment" then transform (as per the movies etc).
However the Hybrid form should we get to that stage, poses an interesting mix. For example in Dog Soldiers they are able to open doors etc and are a mix anyway so it should not surprise. Perhaps you've hit the nail squarely on the head here, Andius in the Hybrid Form, some sort of choice might need to be made by the player given the transformation loss of control and damage and then what is to hand/paw?
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Goblin Squad Member
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##4. Paizo's supported material (which likely builds on 1-3)##
A dig around in Paizo comes up with some interesting looking material on werewolves. Two in particular caught my eye:
(1) A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Dæmonwulf by Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway
(2) Complete Guide to Werewolves (OGL) PDF by Goodman Games
There are some others but from cursory inspection they don't appear necessary or focused for our initiatives' objectives.
(1) has more immediate application to our MVP-RP approach to werewolves and will form the main basis to apply to PFO. (2) expands tremendously on werewolf lore and concept from more reseach on the orginal mythology to expanding the range of werewolf types and life-stages even. There may be one or two really useful nuggets to take from (2) but overall it's beyond the scope of what this initiative requires. That said those nuggets will weave their way into our story such as understanding the mind and motivations of the werewolf for example. Actually reading some of (2) for the first time it's nice to see much of the summary for 1.-3. independently come to here.
Sympathetic Magic as per Frazer's The Golden Bough will probably become a part of our "Origins" story which is a useful nugget taken from (2) for example:-
It wasn’t much of a leap for the old sympathetic magic rituals, in which men wore wolf pelts to draw strength from their power, to be transformed into something far more sinister.
It will also be a useful source for talking points such as the effect of the character's alignment on their werewolf transition or if bitten, the source of the bite and if that has any influence. But that is all besides the current exercise. Quite a lot of the RP and even a system for this may be gleaned from this source for the Cooperative which will then reference heavily eg:-
Most werewolves prefer to hunt traditional wolf meals: cattle, sheep, deer, and other four-legged mammals.
Werewolves prefer to attack prey at night if possible and generally commence hunting at dusk. Once a werewolf’s prey is detected, the pack will split up to encircle it, looking to block any form of escape. The werewolves will stay out of sight, staying in humanoid form in crowded areas to blend in and using wolf form for more open terrain.
In (1) the conception of the werewolf fits with our plans:
This time, however, we aimed to improve on the overall method, making the "building blocks" readily available to players who aren't willing to invest in an entire class (for example, existing characters who are already invested in another class) but still want to play in the proverbial lycanthrope sandbox. To this end, we decided to distill these werewolf powers into feats. For the most part, these building-blocks come in the form of feats, starting The Curse of the Beast feat which allows a character to transform into a wolf, but also forces them to deal with a number of dangerous side-effects.
Key considerations to the werewolf character:-
- First and foremost Lycanthropes are melee combatants, who revel in sinking their teeth into the flesh of their foes.
- Can be of any alignment, though most tend towards chaotic and evil alignments, as their inner beast drives them into darkness.
- Any race can be the subject of the werewolf's curse
Key Feats/Abilities (as applicable to PFO):
1. Curse of the Beast (wolf transformation)
2. Lunar Phase (full moon)
3. Corpse Feeding
4. Call of the Wild (empathy with wolves)
5. Control and goals while transformed
6. Silver vulnerability
Items of interest:-
1. Silver
2. Wolf Pelt
3. Wolfsbane
This is a very quick summary of relevant information. Perhaps the biggest take-home from this is the idea that providing building-blocks for players is the ideal method and which the Feats system might in time be able to provide. That said the cooperative will for a variety of reasons contain operations to Full Moon Events when the curse "bites".
Next we'll look into the "Origins of Werewoles" aka "causes" as a starting point for 5.
##5. Approximating all the above to fit PFO appropriately##
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, an interesting development has occurred. The Cooperative was set up very much with this sort of eventuality in mind and accordingly the suitable ability to marshal a directed response.
Part of the cooperative's work is to form a membership which can focus voting in crowdforging of PFO according to our specific vision.
There is an idea of ideascale: Better Night Sky
The Cooperative supports this idea because a major part of the Lycanthrope mythos is related to the phases of the moon as well as an attractive "after dark" atmosphere for our nocturnal adventures and RP and Events we intend to create for members.
We would recommend those sympathetic to werewolf kind and members of the cooperative to support this idea in view of furthering the cooperative's goals concerning werewolves.
Please click the link and lend your support to werewolves! You'll not just be getting a better night sky (which is good for all and good for potential customers who like a world with a good atmosphere) but you'll be improving the atmosphere and horror element that our cooperative wishes to introduce into the game - for free!
"Shhh! What was that sound? I thought I heard heavy breathing... perhaps it wa... "ARROOOOO!!!!""
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Goblin Squad Member
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I couldn't resist posting a very mild update and proffer excuses for delays (working on 4 low-paid jobs atm, doing 2 online study courses and not making much progress on any of them (!) atst as hopping about in accommodation, so I hope despite my wittering writing style my excuses are at least solid).
This project is still slinking around in the shadows... I've managed to finally get back to work on the Cooperative's Blueprint document which when finished I'll be sharing with other members of the Cooperative who I've also selected as Board of Directors members given their founding interest (which I'm hoping will prevail during these early, incipient days when PFO is still more promise than successful premise). I hope their input can then take the vision into blueprint and thence final form as the process of devolving into the community, the cooperative, takes it's first steps.
Given a rise in debate on the merits of PFO compared to other games as the implementation of the tech is still reportedly fairly raw, it's worth noting there really is a market for this game as evidenced by the periodic repetition of such threads of discussion on mmorpgs variously around the internet such as this one:-
Has the MMORPG Community forgotted the RPG portion of it?
Are there any games/communities around that actually cater to RPG style gameplay these days or should I just give up on MMO's?
The way I've conceptualized the merit of PFO's design (tech's another question) as previously in these threads:-
- Hexes (world-level game-view)
- Settlements & Buildings (communities-level game-view)
- Characters & Skill-Training & Roles (player-level game-view)
I think the idea here as per the above Fractal exposition is post-hoc emergence will be the full reward of the game spread over a longer timescale of gratification than for example visceral combat. Yet the moment to moment phases of fun are important to addressing the simple question of any game: "Is it any fun?"
Here, this is my personal attempt to address this question via as per the FAQ the concept of "Playing A Role" that Ryan's mentioned before along the lines of a more player-driven gameplay source:-
Pathfinder Online's innovative archetype system includes specific paths of development that reflect the classes in the tabletop game, so if you want to play a character that mirrors a classic tabletop class, you'll be able to do it. However, Pathfinder Online is driven by more diverse player activity than the classic adventurer-focused tabletop experience; Pathfinder Online players will be able to act as merchants, farmers, miners, teamsters, caravan guards, spies, and explorers, and in any other role the players choose to create. Characters will have a wide variety of skills to develop, allowing them to be highly customized to the player's preference.
For Early Enrollment we'll have support for characters playing the role of fighters, wizards, rogues and clerics.
I think this can be where PFO shines compared to other games. Again positive indications come from for ESO who not only use the Vampire/Werewolf Templates but have recently added the "Enforcer/Outlaw" Roles for players.
The Enforcer
This is one of the two roles a player can take on. This role is the Paladin, the do-gooder. As an Enforcer it is your duty to patrol the cities of Tamriel looking out for Outlaws who are only out for themselves. Stealing from the wealthy, from the poor, there is no regard for either.
In order to become an Enforcer you have to go to the Enforcer Towers, typically located just outside the city walls. Once there you’ll need to obtain your Enforcer tabard. This tabard is what will flag you as an “on duty” Enforcer.
You'll notice PFO is taking this idea forwards a great deal more and again this provides some confidence in the direction GW wishes to take PFO.
This is not idle academic "on paper" discussion either, to make the case for this concept that it fits within the above idea of player roles, here is an idea which is about "playing a role" about the player community crowdforging this role, providing the role designed and eventually implemented in far superior form and fidelity than can be managed in any other mmorpg. Perhaps it's been overlooked that one of the main reasons this has not happened before is due to the pre-eminence of the demand-supply relationship in dictating a game's design and development.
This Cooperative Player Group will not be functioning on that basis but using a different paradigm to pursue growth and achievement of our goals and ultimately satisfaction in the total PFO Community over the feature we're attempting to create here.
Let's just cast our minds into the distant future; a future where the Cooperative player initiative group (The Shadow of the Beast) has been successful and the results:-
For 3 Nights per month, during the full moon, additional content in faithful flavor and lore and imagination of Pathfinder is added to the game for the entire playerbase to enjoy. This content consists of the most sophisticated AI in any mmorpg ever implemented, supported by a system that is player-created, player-funded and makes Goblinworks more money as well as an advertisement of the virtues of their crowdforging development process and player-driven gameplay
Hehe, that's sure crossing the divide (in more dimensions than one)!
=
Enough of the old dry dusty discussion, here's some (purdy pictures) visualizations I was looking at.
The Bones/Reaper Miniature that seems associated with Paizo games and it's a very decent artistic representation of Werewolf I'm happy to see:-
Bones/Reaper Werewolf Miniature
And wondering what our Werewolf will look like as per "seeing is believing" I dug around in the Unity Asset store and found what is rudimentary possible with pricing (albeit this is not discussion implementation from this source merely what could be done as an MVP Werewolf visual form post Druidic Wildshape):-
Unity Werewolf Hybrid Showcase (unity webplayer player manipulation demo)
Unity Wolf Showcase (unity webplayer player manipulation demo)
To finally finish with a flourish, I've put a bit of thought into this and how all the components add together. I think they all combine and fall into place like some sort of deductive formulae funnily enough. Or might have just gone barking mad...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Out of interest:
Yet, the overall implementation hasn’t been entirely satisfying for some players. This might be about to change with the new update just released to the test server, so let’s take a look at the impact of werewolves and what’s ahead for them.
Werewolves are a way to shake things up, open new opportunities for roleplaying, and even affect such game attributes as the economy.
For all the cool points, werewolves have basically been underpowered, which makes for unhappy PvPers, since coolness points, sadly, don't absorb damage. The powers werewolves could use were also limited to two and then three. This new patch brings in three more powers
Even werewolf animations got some cleaning up and setting right. When breaking out of combat, they'll now run off on all fours.
The concept is good as you can tell. But the implementation is obviously combat only. Again the animation is good concerning running on all fours more as a wolf-hybrid BEAST. I prefer this visual representation and slant towards more "inner beast" and less humanoid-form that is seen in the picture at mmorpg.com. The behavior needs to then match it.
The Keystone of the Cooperative is the Werewolf concept which is built around THE ROLE being the focus and source to derive everything else from, not the combat machine, though as a perfect fit for PvP gameplay that will also be important for gameplay.
The way ESO has developed their Werewolf shows there's a market for them but it also highlights the limitations of their design practice and philosophy.
I want to see PFO hold the best Werewolves in all fantasy mmorpgs. Second I want this model to be a template for future player initiatives.
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I have to say that this is the first time I've encountered this thread, not being as avid a forum-follower as I would like (real life sucks).
I love the idea, though, and Malaficia (my nature-orientated druid/witch) would like to sign up to your newsletter. If she were a lycanthrope, which obviously she's not. I mean, haha, all that disruption once a month is ... um... "woman's trouble" and nothing to do with lycanthropy. Obviously.
My two pennyworth is that a changed lycanthrope should not be able to distinguish one member of a race from another, should only have a very limited 'pack' of acquaintances with which she is comfortable, and should be forced to unequip all gear once changed.
On the flipside, she should be a powerful ambush/pack predator and accumulate a separate strand of experience from the human form. Obviously Werewolf trainers would be rather hard to find, so being able to gain wolfen skills and abilities might be tricky, necessitating visiting CN/CE-friendly druidic trainers during the full moon.
No cross-over of XP or abilities should be allowed, the character should literally become a different and wholly distinct person/animal.
The upside? It would be something different, something liberating and something fun to play out. If that isn't enough, then don't take the Curse!
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The concept is good as you can tell. But the implementation is obviously combat only. Again the animation is good concerning running on all fours more as a wolf-hybrid BEAST. I prefer this visual representation and slant towards more "inner beast" and less humanoid-form that is seen in the picture at mmorpg.com. The behavior needs to then match it.
In Pathfinder a werewolf in hybrid form looks extremely bestial but it is interesting to note some do wield weapons like a human.
I feel like there should be more than one path to take as a werewolf, and reasons for characters of every class to consider it.
One of those paths should be people who lose themselves entirely to the beast within, give up their armor, weapons etc. and go fully feral werewolf trading their last shreds of humanity while in hybrid form to pure bestial power. Doing that should have effects even on their human form both negative and positive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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These are nice ideas for a white wolf game centered around werewolves. I still want no part of werewolves or vampires in PFO. We have 7 core races and long list of other races that should be in before talk of werewolves. Werwolves and vampires as player races is not core to the Golarion setting. This is not Skyrim.
Dhampirs and Kitsune we can talk about. This thread, imo, is a waste of time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@T7V Avari: I like your forthrightness and fresh way of discussing so there's no problem in suggesting the time put in here is wasted and likewise others should be careful that they are not being roped into false hopes. The concept here is not a race however, which I think neatly side-steps your priority list (which seems a fair list to point out: "Oi, join the que along with the rest of us, buddy!").
What it is, is an idea that attempts to connect other concepts that are floating about and see if "from nothing" something can be created gradually over time and steadily increase. The point of "inception" will hopefully be fuzzy. :)
I've finally just finished the last section of the "Blueprint" document which I'll send to the peeps who expressed interest, soon enough. It needs tidying up in Grammar, verbosity, clarity of thinking; as well as shorter presentation on a website in sections would make it more readable with hyperlinks etc (clash between being research "building a case" vs "practical: How do we do this?". But what is already written is more a structure and if people decide there's something in it, then they can hopefully add their input to help develop it... for example:-
@Andius the Afflicted:
In Pathfinder a werewolf in hybrid form looks extremely bestial but it is interesting to note some do wield weapons like a human.
I feel like there should be more than one path to take as a werewolf, and reasons for characters of every class to consider it.
One of those paths should be people who lose themselves entirely to the beast within, give up their armor, weapons etc. and go fully feral werewolf trading their last shreds of humanity while in hybrid form to pure bestial power. Doing that should have effects even on their human form both negative and positive.
See this is one of the essential dualities:-
Enforcing roleplaying
A roleplay-mandated world is essentially going to have to be a fascist state. Whether or not this accords with your goals in making such a world is a decision you yourself will have to make.
Storytelling versus simulation
If you write a static story (or indeed include any static element) in your game, everyone in the world will know how it ends in a matter of days. Mathematically, it is not possible for a design team to create stories fast enough to supply everyone playing. This is the traditional approach to this sort of game nonetheless. You can try a sim-style game which doesn't supply stories but instead supplies freedom to make them. This is a lot harder and arguably has never been done successfully.
So effectively this is a Werewolf Story. It also requires a degree of "fascist control" because we're necessarily starting from RP roots.
However the duality is here from the Paizo/D20/OGL/Pathfinder Literature Review, that the best method in character concept creation is:-
"Make Your Own Character via an assortment of tools for players to choose from".
So we need to basic plan that ensures consistency but atst diversity of choice as above: I'd not be averse to any of those developments along that path for a particular pack's story and history. In fact it would be excellent. What will likely dictate it however is Time and Techniques (explained more in the Blueprint). So I really like Andius' suggestion: It has a strong vision; some of it will be possible sooner (bestial submission) and other parts much later (hybrid + weapon wielding) if at all.
@Sadurian:
1. The pack structure is already envisioned and hence what you said resonates both IC and OOC group make-ups (lol these double-meanings, eg I read werewolf trainers as werewolf "sneakers" and monthly troubles..).
2. Yeah it's any race, alignment, player-group. It's a meta-group of some sort albeit if the need arises a CC if we are allowed 3 CC's as an "AND" option.
3. Yes again, when we have our "event nights" (RP to begin with then more..) one of the code rules is "apolitical" motivation and interaction. :)
=
Anyway, it feels strange to be talking about a topic in this thread without sharing the ideas; so I hope that this will happen fairly soon.
It's an attempt to solve a problem. It may fail as with any attempt, but to see it through and see how far we can get; to find the right path for our paws to pad forwards along!
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I'm effectively playing a werewolf character in PnP Pathfinder at the moment. I play a Okami True Primitive Barbarian/Druid/Nature Warden. The Okami is a 3rd Party wolfen version of the Kitsune and allows hybrid and human forms, with wolf and dire wolf forms bought as racial Feats (which I have done).
The rest of the party are agreeably confused as my normal form (Druid shapeshifting complicates matters no end), but I have agreed with the GM that my 'base' form is actually that of the dire wolf. Instead of a human who turns into a wolf I am a wolf who turns into a human (sometimes).
Once GW have built the basic framework to allow shapeshifting for druids and polymorphing wizards, the opportunities to introduce other shapeshifting concepts can get going. Hopefully, those with a strong player-base support and sketched out ideas will be taken up.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In some of the literature this concept indeed comes up and it's very nice twist to countenance:-
(1) A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Dæmonwulf by Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway
(2) Complete Guide to Werewolves (OGL) PDF by Goodman Games
There are some others but from cursory inspection they don't appear necessary or focused for our initiatives' objectives.
(3) Bite Me! Playing Lycanthropes (OGL 3.75) by Robert H Hudson Jr. with Jeff Erwin and Rich Howard
(4) Curse of the Moon (d20) by Sean K. Reynolds
And adds diversity. One of the reasons I've gone with the other way around as standard apart from "the norm" is that we'll operate 3 nights per month as per the full moon. This has a number of advantages but also practical in using the shape-change as imperative (ie not elective) in keeping with werewolf core concept; but also out of practicality: Our players will have their primary identity as functional group members who "take a holiday" for a few nights each month. That said if the concept of working the other way around is investigated we'd definitely work with it "somehow". It depends on the player if they wish (and can) spend most of their time in "wolf-form" for example then we'd develop cooperative rules for that outside the definitive 3 nights/month window.
Really this sort of diversity if we can add and realize is what such RPG games gain their magic from imo. :)
Besides, we need various functions to be funneled through people who have the ability and experience. For example, RP experienced players can help here (I have RP'd but am not very experienced) and develop the systems we plan on using (more in the Blueprint); those with a solid understanding of the skill-training system of PFO can also help there and so on.
I must admit I really like the concepts mentioned so far (Andius, Sadurian). I have a concept that I hope brings out a smile of appreciation when heard, too. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have doubts this game will last to see the release of druids so probably. I still think it's an interesting exersize to discuss how werewolves could be implemented in this or any other MMO.
I didn't spot this. Yeah it's not merely "idle chat"; I considered that this project risks the possibility of not reaching fruition before PFO were to fail to survive in the harsh mmorpg market. But as said, this idea comes "from nothing". It's source is the players of the game and the collective contribution to enhancing the game: It's fun and it's external appeal.
The thing that attracts me to the game is the game design and it's inclusion of player-driven gameplay. I believe if we can harness players into a suitable structure we can actually achieve some really rewarding game play systems into the game. This expands into discussing how to implement werewolves into mmorpgs. Of related interest another example:-
The Beorning is coming in with a similar level of anticipation and controversy that swirled around the Rune-keeper. There are folks excited about the possibilities of playing a skin-changer, and there are those hotly debating its lore qualifications. And if I have to hear "Beornings are a race, not a class" one more time,
As you probably expected, the Beorning will cost 1000 Turbine Points to unlock, at least on the test server. It's not a surprise, since Turbine still charges for the Warden and Rune-keeper, but I wanted to make sure that it's clear that Update 15 won't be handing bear-men out for free.
The skin-changing skill is first up; it'll transform me into a bear (which is, by the way, the only other form this class takes, so don't be thinking that you will have a wide variety like World of Warcraft's Druid).
So it looks as if the bear form is for a temporary battle boost and not something that's sustained over the long haul. At least we won't be seeing a million bears stampeding all through Hobbiton come this patch.
Instead, the tutorial sends me to do a variety of learn-your-class tasks, such as talking to cows in animal languages, sparring with a cousin, and smacking down those oversized Middle-earth mosquitoes. So how does the Beorning feel in combat? At least initially, it's a fairly standard melee attacker who has the special option to shift into bear mode for stronger attacks. The transition between forms is done with a fade-in, fade-out instead of any really cool transformation animation, but I wasn't expecting anything great in that regard. It is kind of fun to smack things down as a bear, although the always-ticking-down wrath bar keeps that fun on a time limit.
Very initial impressions of the combat style leave me wanting a lot more. The lack of a ranged pull means that every fight involves running up to the mob, after which I spam attack skills until I can go into Smokey mode and then spam the one skill I have there. Probably the biggest issue is Big Bear Butt Syndrome, in which your huge hiney obscures a lot of what's going on in the fight. The bear model isn't terrible, but it's not much better than bears already in the game. I would like to see customization options with bear mode to differentiate my hide and pattern from those of other players.
As I mentioned previously, the Beorning is extraordinarily flexible in how you want to play it, either as pure DPS, healing, tanking, support, or some mix of the above. The Hide trait line is the Beorning's tanking build.
Summary:-
1. Anticipation of a new option/choice
2. Monetization
3. Bear-form is merely a combat skill boost (temporary)
4. Gameplay of the new class is: Quest/lore pve flavor + combat option
5. Seems to be a cost-effective new class first release
6. Some problems of making the combat controls more friendly in animal form with limited attack options (see 5.).
I think you can learn a great deal about implementing werewolves and the approach taken here by Turbine for LOTR. Some lessons for example: Do it on the lean side; other lessons to expand more on the Role and not worry so much on the combat balance or skill-progression systems... for werewolves that is.
But yeah, coming back to the original intention: It's all about developing a player-centric model of a role in PFO that gets me excited about this initiative of which werewolves are expression of; hence our keystone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have doubts this game will last to see the release of druids so probably. I still think it's an interesting exersize to discuss how werewolves could be implemented in this or any other MMO.I didn't spot this. Yeah it's not merely "idle chat"; I considered that this project risks the possibility of not reaching fruition before PFO were to fail to survive in the harsh mmorpg market. But as said, this idea comes "from nothing". It's source is the players of the game and the collective contribution to enhancing the game: It's fun and it's external appeal.
Of course, if you are serious about this game there is no reason not to be serious about this initiative.
For me, PFO has dropped from my list of serious into titles like Wurm, Darkfall, Mortal, Xsyon etc. that contain many ideas both good and bad to learn from but will never be going anywhere significant and don't need to be seen as serious competitors by the rest of the gaming industry.
I just don't see it advancing any faster or offering anything of significantly greater quality than some of those titles.
It's incredibly unlikely PFO will ever surpass or even be in the same league as EVE and Minecraft while games like LiF and especially Star Citizen still may reach that status someday because they are advancing quickly and/or offering very quality products.
So for me any WW initiative in PFO could be used as model to look at by more serious MMOs. I don't hold hope that it would create playable WWs in a serious sandbox anymore though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@T7V Avari
>"I'm just in the boat that this is not something I want to see for PFO, ever."
Without an explanation for to form a basis for reasoning, I can only assume this sentiment is a product of the aberration of discussing something such as this when the actual game has not even left alpha? I'm well aware of that impact and probably need to let this thread fall back down, but in fact discussing here has been useful, inputting some of the ideas raised and objections to feed into the blueprint and stimulating looking things up. :)
The alternative is that you have a conception of PFO where werewolves don't fit or work in the lore? Yet I can't puzzle how this would be concluded, as I've provided plenty of reference material above that PFO is a big sandbox involving galactic travelling, alternative genres et al eg Ustalav not so far from The River Kingdoms. Again one of the ideas of PFO is crowdforging, and that means different players will want to emphasize different things. And again the plan here is to factor that in; such as your response. The only bit I find puzzling is the use of the word "ever". Never say never.
When you say, other races take precedence, I don't disagree, because WW concept is not a race and won't be implemented at all like one. This provides a different path and hence different approach.
But also, I find the position odd, because we're talking about a game with the potential to raise 20-80k players in the next few years and of that large number a fraction want to develop a WW feature to the game. I would hope of those numbers if PFO is successful that other fractions of the player base want to specify their support for other things and hence I think your objection is based around the unusual visibility of this thread more than anything else?
Perhaps you wish to express a challenge to the concept or indirectly suggest it's not going to work or that it would take such a long time to make it work and factor in popularity and dev consent to work that it's never going to work? I realize these are challenges, and think there's a way to slip around around them - that's why I've put the energy into this. I want to take the principles discussed in the PFO design blogs and make it happen via the player-base. The WW keystone around which this is built is just the vehicle: Again something people seem not to realize a symbol is insubstantial or mistake an attempt to bring other ideas from other IP's into PFO as their pet favorite? Again that's just secondary: I have no particular favoritism of werewolves: They have the virtue of imo working in a way that introduces "meaningful human interactions," that appears to be more do-able via player collaboration and motivation that relies much less on dev-driven considerations ie demand-supply in providing content. To cut down the verbiage (!) I think players can have a real go here.
Anyway I will drop it at this point. My focus is on those who see this idea as another option that one of the players of this game has taken the time to try to provide some sort of starting basis to and see where "the adventure" takes us; not on those who have other "adventures" in mind.
@Andius the Afflicted
>"For me, PFO has dropped from my list of serious into titles like Wurm, Darkfall, Mortal, Xsyon etc. that contain many ideas both good and bad to learn from but will never be going anywhere significant"
That would appear true atm. But PFO I think is unique in the design intention to scale up. It's probably why it does look so crude and work so crude atm, given that ambition on how the design has to spread so thin in these early days, whereas for example LiF has the luxury of producing quality with 64 (?) peeps per instance and then work on quality systems for that ie polished graphics, cool formation stuff, nice detailed crafting stations and a feeling of high interaction with the world and freedom to develop towns that look really evocative.
If PFO manages to get through Year 1, then I think it's scale could start looking awesome. That's my belief in where it's going.
Coming back to WW, FP perspective as a slavering beast would be immersive, but I think even with the over-the-shoulder camera and a pack of were-wolves can still achieve a lot of immersion as a hunting pack at night. :)
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Apart from anything else (although most assuredly not my angle or 'scene') playing a werewolf will appeal to those potential players who are 'furries' and like to play animal characters!
Frankly, any schtick or lure to entice new players can only be a good thing, be it ever so small or ever so ignorable by those who do not wish to participate.
More broadly, the popularity of games like White Wolf's 'Werewolf' and so forth cannot be ignored. No, Werewolf is not Pathfinder, but then PFO is not really Pathfinder either. The Golarian multiverse contains werewolves (and similar shapeshifters - I'd love to play a werecat of some description) and is always subject to change. There is no good reason that I can see why introducing a few PC-controlled lycanthropes would be bad for the game - so long as balance is maintained for other players and for the characters themselves.
I don't see 'Pathfinder doesn't have werewolves as a playable race' as a valid argument against having them in PFO. Pathfinder has plenty of legitimate player-race and class options that are unlikely to ever become part of PFO, and indeed having player-controlled characters infected by lycanthropy is an option presented in the canon PnP books, even if it isn't a suggested starting race.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sadurian: Part of the idea is fun gameplay as well as broadcasting specific appeal (furries) and most important of all demonstrating what is possible when players collaborate to solve problems - something that could separate PFO entirely. +1.
I hope to invite interested people who are sincere and use this as a basis to serve the player community. This is the idea behind the Cooperative.
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The alternative is that you have a conception of PFO where werewolves don't fit or work in the lore?
Pretty much this. It's not that they don't fit in the lore, there are werewolves in Golarion obviously. So you are right, never say never. Maybe way down the line, as part of an expansion...
My issue with it is pretty much just being sick and tired of Vampire and Werewolf fans trying to ram them in everywhere. There are certain settings that cater to those fan bases (WoD/Elder Scrolls), Golarion really isn't one of them. As a matter of fact, the advanced races Pathfinder source book tells you specifically which are the marginal races we should be thinking about. There is a furry race, they are the fox like Kitsune. There is a half vampire race, they are the dhampir. Both races are balanced against the other races and do not behave in these "impervious during the moonlight" or "absurd stat increase during monnlight" ways.
Looking for these types of "special treatment" game play systems instead of going with the Pathfinder appropriate balanced races reeks of well, special treatment syndrome, I guess.
The entire thread is full of really "special and cool" stuff that would cause 90% of the population to go werewolf. This isn't a werewolf game so why would we want that? The only werewolf rules I'd like to see would be where being a werewolf SUCKS. It's a curse the PC would want to get rid of as soon as possible. Like heinous flag + crappy alpha dog stats.
Honestly, I could see it as a temporary curse—something that goes away the next time you die. In the meantime, you have a stat increase and get the Heinous flag. Simple, harsh, but possibly with some uses. The trick is finding a werewolf and getting the curse without dying in the process—and then hanging onto the curse afterwards long enough to use its boosts effectively.
Honestly, I could see it as a temporary curse—something that goes away the next time you die. In the meantime, you have a stat increase and get the Heinous flag. Simple, harsh, but possibly with some uses. The trick is finding a werewolf and getting the curse without dying in the process—and then hanging onto the curse afterwards long enough to use its boosts effectively.
I've thought about this in reference to necromancy. As well as thinking about said flag.
First, I think that flag should be adjusted. In an open pvp game, it's too much (except for one instance, which I will get into in a second.) I think it would be nice to be able to hide your flag with a higher level feat. That means, you could still get attacked if people knew or could perceive you were, but if not, like just walking you could find some way to appear either as an animal or disguise yourself as a human.
Now, in regards to using the heinous flag effectively, this was the idea that I came up with. Basically, it would be before doing some srs pvp. You could group up, all raise your undead (or become werewolves) then go in on a settlement. In that case, it wouldn't matter. could also see roaming kill groups doing the same thing, but if you didn't do it as a sort of cultist group thing, you would get destroyed pretty fast.
Edit: @ Avari, yeah I mean they could/should be in the game, I think, but modified. +/- is good, but any sort of invulnerability is a joke in pvp games. It could be something as simple as +20% stats -50% + abilities that only work during certain instances. Ideally, it would be great for the game to say "I gotta move these goods from this town to this down... but it's a full moon... maybe I should stay in." Or "WE shouldn't slight the Lycan settlement, the full moon is upcoming.
Just more choices is good, but you're right in that these other things are OP. Although, dare I say that people do not like them because they are OP but because of their flavor, and they would probably accept nerfs to make them a balanced race.
Although, dare I say that people do not like them because they are OP but because of their flavor, and they would probably accept nerfs to make them a balanced race.
Just gonna leave it at this:
Werewolves are not a balanced race in Golarion. They are not supposed to be a balanced race in Golarion.|
Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, there's little point in writing more as we're not really talking about the same things. In fact it's counter-product for my entire approach to continue this conversation so I'll write this and drop this thread from now on. The work is moving to the blueprint and those who it's intended for.
My issue with it is pretty much just being sick and tired of Vampire and Werewolf fans trying to ram them in everywhere.
There's nothing I can do here, this is normal that others have their own preferences as well as aversions and of course believe some things have been "thrashed to death", of course.
I've never been a werewolf fan and would normally play a LG persona to reflect myself, for example. Werewolves however fulfil the market criteria and that very much is something the project is angling at intentionally and very seriously.
Golarion really isn't one of them. As a matter of fact, the advanced races Pathfinder source book tells you specifically which are the marginal races we should be thinking about.
As I said above, our project picks any race, any alignment, any etc... . Secondly to me Golarion is a big sandbox: And again this is precisely what this project is attempting to work with. Werewolves just happen to fit a number of connected and necessary conditions.
There is a furry race, they are the fox like Kitsune. There is a half vampire race, they are the dhampir. Both races are balanced against the other races and do not behave in these "impervious during the moonlight" or "absurd stat increase during monnlight" ways.
Both of those sound interesting but I know little of them. But again this project is not dealing in any of the assumptions above such as the mechanical one you offer nor is it working with specific races once again.
Looking for these types of "special treatment" game play systems instead of going with the Pathfinder appropriate balanced races reeks of well, special treatment syndrome, I guess.
I think there's nothing wrong with "special treatment" especially when we'll be treating ourselves: That's the whole point of these secondary worlds to paint a vision into life. Neither are will we be assuming GW would deliver such "favors" too.
The entire thread is full of really "special and cool" stuff that would cause 90% of the population to go werewolf.
It sounds like that on the outside I suppose. In actuality it's a hardship. The population question is also carefully worked out but I'm not revealing that before it's time - which is probably activity in the game world and seeing how things pan out before moving here.
The only werewolf rules I'd like to see would be where being a werewolf SUCKS. It's a curse the PC would want to get rid of as soon as possible. Like heinous flag + crappy alpha dog stats.
All in good time and all part of a piece. The player-base itself can provide these sorts of "negatives" ideas is actually my own preference. Again we're still talking about different things hence this is my polite response to you for providing some useful (and good fun) inputs. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Avenaoates
I am sorry that you of all people, a great poster and overall cool guy by all measures, would get caught up in my little rant. Like I said there is a lot of really cool ideas in here I'd love to see in some other game.
But you should be forwarned before spending too much energy on this that if moonboys and blah blah's ever get to be voted on for PFO ahead of more appropriate dhampirs/kitsune/ratfolk/wayangs etc., you will find some stiff resistance from the IP geeks and I'll be leading the charge ;p
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe a major balancer for players would be if the werewolf form was essentially a separate character. All its XP accumulation and any training would not count towards the main 'normal' character.
Effectively, you'd be throwing away XP each month, something that would put off many players. Your werewolf form should not be able to identify individuals so there should be no PvP 'were-griefing' or similar retribution raids, and you would be tagged as a legitimate target for any and every player (possibly including other werewolves). Werewolves should not be able to loot and will have no access to their 'normal' side's powers. None of the killing will benefit anything but the werewolf side of your character, and that is something you only have access to for a couple of days a month, and then only for more random killing.
Now whilst the gory blood-fest of the werewolf's combat power might be fun to indulge in at first, it will quickly pall and the condition will become a bind, a curse in fact. I foresee quite a few werewolf players quietly seeking out a cure for their condition once they have realised that running psychotically through the countryside is not actually as fun as it first appeared.
So, once the blood-fest psychos have left, what are left are those for whom the werewolf option is a legitimate character concept choice. Those for whom the lycanthropy is a valid RPing element of their character and for whom the disadvantages are outweighed by the fun of role-playing with such a curse.