The Zen"ish" Archer: A 6 Level Starter To Many Archery Builds


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So, I've wondered for a long, long time why Zen Archer can Take Rapid Shot/Manyshot as bonus feats. But the following occurred to me:

Monk (Zen Archer) 1 - MBF: Point-Blank Shot, Feat: Precise Shot (not including a human feat)
Monk (Zen Archer) 2 - MBF: Rapid Shot, Zen Archer: WF (Longbow)
Monk (Zen Archer) 3 - Zen Archery, Point Blank Master, Fast Movement Feat: ANY
Fighter (Weapon Master) 1 - FBF: Deadly Aim
Fighter (Weapon Master) 2 - FBF: Combat Reflexes. Feat: ANY
Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 - Weapon Training (Longbow) +1
(Optional Fighter 4 for Weapon Specialization)

7th Feat: Manyshot
9th Feat: Snapshot
11th Feat: Improved Snap Shot
13th Feat: Improved Precise Shot

Now, I'm not going to make the claim that this is the best archer; it's not. However, it gets you a very, very solid WIS-based archer, that can then be branched into a number of other classes, PrC and otherwise, to make a very solid archer that can become many interesting combinations. Lantern Bearer, Sentinel of Erastil, Stalwart Defender, Shadow Dancer, Pathfinder Delver and Horizon Walker all come to mind as PrCs.

Things to note:

* The character will make use of the Flurry of Bows ability of the Zen Archer until he gets Manyshot, after which he will switch to Rapid Shot/Manyshot.

* Manyshot requires Dex 17, so this character will probably have to buy a 15 in both Dex and Wis, before any racial modifiers. Alternately, a Garuda-Blooded Aasimar allows you to get away with buying a 14 in dex. In either case, +2 Dex item by level 7 allows Manyshot. If not possible by level 7, Manyshot can be switched with Snapshot.

* The one weakness I see, archery wise, is the late acquisition of Improved Precise Shot. I've never found the feat very important if tactics are used properly, but the build can be altered to replace the Fighter levels with Ranger 6, to acquire it at level 9.

* Monk 3 means that the Monk's robes will boost AC and Unarmed Damage by two steps, so that will be an item this character wants to eventually get.

Shadow Lodge

No Clustered Shots? That's almost mandatory for an archer.


So, Snap Shot, Clustered Shots and Manyshot all become available at BAB +6. If not a class with more bonus feats, like the Sentinel, it's really up to you what order you like them in. I find that Clustered Shots isn't so important until later, and so might take it at level 15 if I didn't get a bonus feat before then.

Or, if you like, Take Fighter 4 at level 7, and get two of them, before branching off into other classes.


Or, here's a really ridiculous possibility:

Monk (Zen Archer) 1 - MBF: Point-Blank Shot, Feat: Precise Shot, [Human Feat if Human]
Monk (Zen Archer) 2 - MBF: Rapid Shot, Zen Archer: WF (Longbow)
Monk (Zen Archer) 3 - Zen Archery, Point Blank Master, Fast Movement +10, Feat: ANY
Fighter (Weapon Master) 1 - FBF: Deadly Aim
Fighter (Weapon Master) 2 - FBF: BLAH. Feat: Combat Reflexes
Fighter (Weapon Master) 3 - Weapon Training (Longbow) +1
Fighter (Weapon Master) 4 - FBF: Weapon Specialization, 7th level feat: Manyshot, Fighter Feat Retraining: Retrain BLAH into Clustered Shots.

That gets you Manyshot, Weapon Specialization, Clustered Shots at level 7. With a 3rd level feat to spare, too. And 1st level, if you're a human. From there, branch out into whatever class suits your fancy, adding:

9th Feat: Snapshot
11th Feat: Improved Snap Shot
13th Feat: Improved Precise Shot

Scarab Sages

I really don't see what Fighter is bringing here over pure Zen Archer. Pure ZA gets Weapon Specialization earlier, and Improved Precise Shot MUCH earlier. A six level entry into ZA seems to give more than ZA 3/Fighter 3, while still allowing to multiclass.

Weapon Training isn't worth putting off IPS 5-7 levels, that is the feat needed for an Archer, not Clustered Shots.


If you feel that strongly about Improved Precise Shot, then I can see your argument. I've never found that feat needed myself as long as your party members aren't stupid.

Let's Consider Zen Archer 6, trying the same thing where we grab Manyshot

1 MBF: Point-Blank Shot, Feat: Precise Shot
2 MBF: Rapid Shot, WF: Longbow
3 Zen Archery, Point-Blank Master, Feat: Deadly Aim
4
5 Feat: Combat Reflexes
6 WS: Longbow, MBF: Improved Precise Shot

Compared to the previous build, this has
1) 2 less on attack rolls, one from lower BAB, one from lack of weapon training
2) 1 less on damage rolls, from lack of weapon training
3) Can't qualify for Manyshot, Snap Shot OR Clustered Shots until level 8, and so won't get them until level 9. At that point, has to choose between them. Perhaps

9: Manyshot
11: Snapshot
13: Improved Snap Shot
15: Clustered Shots?

4) No spare feats in the first several levels with which to qualify for Prestige Classes.

So, in actuality, it brings a LOT to the table. I suppose if it's been your experience that Improved Precise Shot is really that important, then I can see Zen Archer 6 being better, but I don't find it worth giving up the spare feat, giving up weapon training (and therefore Gloves of Dueling) and delaying Manyshot, Snap Shot and Improved Snap shot by 2 levels, and Clustered Shots by much more than that.


Rudy2 wrote:
If you feel that strongly about Improved Precise Shot, then I can see your argument. I've never found that feat needed myself as long as your party members aren't stupid.

It also lets you ignore concealment. No miss chance is a huge boost to overall damage.

And there are a lot of sources of cover besides your party members, like other bad guys, standing behind something, being partially immersed in water, etc.

Under strict cover rules, ranged attackers end up dealing with soft cover (-4) most of the time. Less strict GMs might take that down to partial cover (-2), but perfectly clear shots are rare.

Rudy2 wrote:
1) 2 less on attack rolls, one from lower BAB, one from lack of weapon training

When flurrying, you don't have a lower BAB. Your monk levels count as your BAB on a flurry. And until you actually have Manyshot, you're better off flurrying.

Rudy2 wrote:
3) Can't qualify for Manyshot, Snap Shot OR Clustered Shots until level 8, and so won't get them until level 9. At that point, has to choose between them.

Why not take one as your level 2 fighter bonus feat?


Gwen Smith wrote:
]Why not take one as your level 2 fighter bonus feat?

That would work fine, if you went Zen Archer 6 > Fighter X. Indeed, Zen Archer 6 > Fighter (Weapon Master) 4 would be an *incredibly* powerful archery build.

My goal, though, is to have a base that allows branching into other classes relatively early on and be "good enough".

Scarab Sages

As Gwen said, strict cover rules make the difference. I really only consider Rangers and ZAMs to be "True" archers because of early access to IPS. Cover is CONSTANTLY an issue in all games I play, and waiting until 11, 13, or 15 is just too painful on a primary archery build.

If you don't have IPS, then you are either eating penalties to hit, frequently not making full attacks due to moving to find an open shot, or are a switch hitter.


Hmm... perhaps the DMs I've played with have just been very lax with the cover rules. I probably have been as well.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / The Zen"ish" Archer: A 6 Level Starter To Many Archery Builds All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.