Goblin Squad Member
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##How can this be done: A first draft blueprint##
There's two rationales for how this might be done:
1. As per kickstarter and crowdforging, this application of turning a major event into a number of smaller processes leading to solution that
mixes development and monetization.
2. As per Star Citizen, offering for sale the prospect of different space-ships or in the case of Pathfinder different Races or Templates, I feel if done in such a way that expands in-game interaction options to create a new experience / relationship with other races/characters has strong monetization and pulling power potential.
The key to integrate any deviation from the standard races is to create a shadow-system that aligns with the progression system in some fashion
so that monetization of the character continues as well as power/social/money progression of the player's character that drives the motivation for their characters' ACT-ions ie acting according to a rational basis as humans (OOC) and as actors according to a rational basis as characters in Golarion (IC).
Again I come up with 2 main approaches to HOW this could be done according to 1) Monetization 2) Development both in tandem. I will use a eg as a demonstration or exemplar of how such a system would work both as a concept and in this particular case organizing the details to work consistently.
##An Example using Lycanthropy##
In this example I use as the core/key design material from Pathfinder: ""A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Daemonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway"
1) Monetization:-
(A) The Player Cooperative:
Here a player cooperative forms around a concept of character that they wish to become an actor in the game world. The cooperative comes up with a schema of how the character concept can be designed to fit within the game and gradually introduced in small increments. This schema is checked by Goblinworks and if approved or approved after feedback/modifications, becomes a formal FRANCHISE owned by that player cooperative.
(B) The Goblinworks Franchise:
This is the schema or rules and development pathway agreed between the Cooperative and Goblinworks and the exclusive rights of a given area to develop according to this
partnership is forged.
For example using the stated exemplar to illustrate this...
player or forum-user "AvenaOats" comes up with the idea that their character could choose all sorts of interesting roles and intends to skill-train those in game as per the xp cash-rate of skill-training progression. There are some interesting options for this character to choose with a diverse set of settlements and player groups. Some in particular catch this potential player's notice: A barbarian-focused group, a dward-based settlement and a bunch who form around the concept of "protectors of nature". These all are possible options for a particular character. It is heart-warming to decide between such
riches and interesting concepts...
Yet, the subject of lycanthropy was raised and this raises some interesting questions, a challenge perhaps for this player to form their small group and vision to fit in the world of Golarion, to be more proactive in choosing the destiny they wish to script to allow a particular character concept to breath life into the game world. How to achieve such a daunting undertaking? Especially as the limits of character concepts appear to have been met and set?
Let's read up how others have successfully implemented Lycanthropes in Pathfinder the role-playing game for advice. Then what is the most basic form of this that the devs could manage to add to the
game and what sort of fee might that entail? Then the process of drumming up interest for this new group begins and with it joint ownership and exlclusive control of access and running according to appropriate acting roles/rules of Lycanthropes as properly detailed in the design schema.
For example the most basic form of lycanthropy might be to be able to change the player character into a wolf model during the full moon. This would be a workable basis to start from and a quote from Goblinworks to use as a banner for similar-minded players.
There's the upfront cost that could raised in part by the "Lycanthrope Cooperative" then there's the financing options that perhaps a small percentage could be paid over time to Goblinworks by the Cooperative for exclusive rights and control of the Lycanthrope Franchise in game. A mixed model to finance the development of the basic Lycanthrope
role could then proceed.
Numbers might be ball-parked at this point. Of course it depends on the feasibility and the support achieved from such a group who could negotiate their own ways to crowdforge this particular aspect where they form around an area of common specific interest. Doubly so that the exclusivity works both for the sense of control and ownership and therefore destiny of this part of the game's design but also to actual aid in the implementation of for example the population density and actual role Lycanthropes are to be employed in the game -
properly. Hence,
2) Design:-
As mentioned above, the interaction between design and monetization proceeds in parallel. One of the great assets of this approach is some of the authorship and "buy-in" is by the newly formed Cooperative of players which may then take modifications and feed-back and final appraisal from Goblinworks. This also appears to be an evolution of the Crowdforging partnership process albeit a new branch on that tree where more universal and full player-base partnership is operating as opposed to a niche subset.
So we know how to introduce in this case Lycanthropy in a feasible (cost and dev allocation) and viable form (a wolf that can have appropriate stats and is limited to members and the cycle
of the full moon is as simple but workable as we could wish for).
Let us now focus more on the fully-fleshed design blueprint as part of the formation of a Cooperative Contract of this Franchise with Goblinworks.
Again the Pathfinder IP comes up trumps, as this sort of work has already been done to great satisfaction and therefore can be used as a basis for development towards compatibility in the Online version. So using, ""A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen derDæmonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway" and summarizing:-
1. "build your own class" approach
2. distill these werewolf powers into feats, and then provide a base class which would be able to make best use of them.
3. For the most pan, these"building blocks- come in the form of feats, starting with the Curse of the Beast ( feat, which allows a character to transform into a wolf, but also forces him to deal with a number of dangerous side-effects.
4. Finally, in addition to 50 feats...
5. first and formost, Lycanthropes are melee combatants, who delight in sinking their teeth into the flesh of their foes..
6. Abilities, Class skills, Alignment, Class features (Class = Role Feature), Moon Cycle affect, devouring corpses...
This is a quick skim of the above work. This would then need to be fitted to the PFO form over subsequent support via the cooperative approach.
We have a workable introduction:-
Wolf Form + Lunar Cycle + Stat change + Consume corpse
Now we need to look at the design of Lycanthrope as an actor in our (chosen) world of Golarion and as an MMO game equally.
1. The Moon cycle (at night time) will limit the transformation which acts to regulate it usefully.
2. The Cooperative members have exclusive rights and access to this functionality, this again usefully limits the ubiquity of Lycanthropes in our world as befits the lore and the horror theme they encourage
3. I believe their fractional population again enhances their role as support-cast to add around the core population and flesh out such a mostly rare curse which makes it especial.
4. But also exclusivity allows 2 other things: Enhanced value as being exclusive but also more tight control of their role in the world by the Cooperative who admit according to the rules of in this case "The Role of The Lycanthrope":
i. The Lycanthrope must abide by the RP rules
ii. These are to assume the mantle of predator of the night and hunt other players during the full moon phase
iii. This should take priority over other concerns during this window or at least until the beast has been satiated on fallen flesh (other players, animals and mobs).
iv. Formation of packs is encouraged if roving widely in wilderness hexes.
v. Attacking indescriminantly even friends is also encouraged while in wolf form. To avoid this travel further away from your group before the full moon.
vi. When we get the audio of a wolf-howl to use this effect in range of potential prey.
The Cooperatives rules are:
i. Pay a small percentage per month to the cooperative for the upkeep of the franchise and privilege of access to the Lycanthrope form.
ii. Meet and discuss the the role of the Lycanthrope and how acting this role can be enhanced for the game world.
iii. Again work together on future development desired and invested in by the devs and cooperative members.
iv. Consider the lycanthrope population and impact and if more members/worthy members can be added given suitable passion and financial investment.
Part of the main work of the cooperative is:
1. RP of Lycanthropes in PFO suitably
2. Work on the further development from the devs on this aspect of the game as well as financing members
An eg of how Lycanthrope might be developed gradually:-
1) Wolf transformation with stats: Use current wolf model
2) Improved wolf model, slightly more were-like wolf and special graphically
3) Add progression path to Lycanthropes which consume sufficient corpses to grant feats
4) Add audio of wolf form
5) Add further lunar variation
6) Add more infrastructure for the Cooperative to finance and manage membership
7) Add a wolf pack hierarchy according to internal feuds and fights, this would be a first step to an internal world of Lycanthropes feuds and attempts at dominance amongst their kind.
8) Add curse aspects of this path in conjunction with the feats acquired - This could be part of the stick given the above carrot, the werewolf addiction to the main character, a habit the character
feels compelled to feed leading to competing interests and conflict.
##Questions and Answers##
Q: Why should Lycanthropes be singled out for special treatment?
A: This is a blueprint for other concepts equally. Lycanthropes act as an illustration exemplar of the potential for this process. An immediate additional example could easily be Vampyres or Liches or etc...
Q: But why should some players have exclusive rights and access when some players may want to play Lycanthropes?
A: MMORPGs are not democracies. Equally that means not all players and characters are or should be the same. Different character concepts and group ethos should be explored by different players according to their personalities and private wishes. Secondly as defined as support cast, this type of concept is intended to be partial representation in addition to the standard main cast and hence as per both lore and practical population dynanics must and needs to be limited proportionally but shadow the main cast of races who are free from such restraints.
Q: Isn't this too far down development to be worthy of consideration however?
A: Sandboxes require development for a widely diverse player base exhibiting different playstyle priorities. This is one way to formalize this within Crowdforging more universal systems for specific group interests. It also follows the same principles of simplicity and parallel between dev scope and player funding the growth of the bud of such smaller systems within the larger game tree.
Q: It seems very unrealistic that Goblinworks would give away control of an aspect of the game to a sub-group of players?
A: This appears to mirror the OGL of Pathfinder in a way where an independent group is able to formalize rules for a specific vision to include in players games. I also like to think that this is a method to engineer some "localism" within the game that all players investing and playing in are party to the total game's franchise. Finally, finding ways to harness players' particular passion in the game I believe is a commercially successful strategy according to the equation: "More People + More Happiness = More Wealth"
Q: I'm still dead against it being player-controlled.
A: Following from above, this imho is necessary, the drama of groups, the business opportunities and ideas over a social hang-out in game and the high-level considerations, are all very important
to the success of the implementation of the idea as well as the actual implementation possible or provided. This to me imitates how business people and such going-concerns are able to get their gossip and info
from other such people over a glass of beer or meal or coffee meeting. I think also it creates their own identity that belongs to them.
Q: So what's to stop a group claiming a cool concept for their franchise and charging extortionate amounts for it to make money?
A: We want and must avoid "rent-seeking", the return on investment for the Cooperative is the continued improvement and expression of these acting roles in the game world and the work and organization
and success at this objective of the fans that creat this sub-culture within the main game's total culture. There would need to be a contract with Goblinworks that establishes good practices and forfeiture of the
Franchise ie terms and conditions.
Q: Ok then how much are we talking about?
A: This requires consultation with Goblinworks for example the most basic goal to achieve (let's refer to the simple ability to change from a character to a wolf model during the full moon in game) We need a quote for that then the Cooperative would need to form and invite certain members to contribute to a total to invest into Goblinwork's offering a formal Franchise (in this case the exclusive rights to the Lycanthrope Franchise). This would be the beginning. Ideally the necessary account management could be built as a template for other such Franchises albeit with their own differences and details and "quotes".
##Personal in an impersonal mmo world##
Comparing the implementation of Werewolves in ESO to the above suggested route I think there is a world of difference. I believe it meets the condition of increasing the "fractal nature" of the world that has been mentioned from time to time.
Admittedly this idea pulls together disparate ideas I'd favor. But remember, different communities finding their niche is the wheel that turns the world. Some of that is economic motivation and some of it is experience and acting taking on it's own generation of content eg the by-product of such denizens on other players as a part of a living world. Ryan's mentioned systems for lots of people, in parallel, repeated lots of times. I think this fits the bill if you consider the franchise system is a blueprint where a group of players can find their niche and their acting role and thereby benefitting the full game world. Tbh I'd be happy to enjoy PFO a game world with werewolves, vampires etc even if my character was none of those things, but the real McCoy versions acted by players feeding their blood or meat addictions etc...
##Comparing to Crowdforging Criteria already set-out##
1 & 3: Exclusive and unique content is the purview of single-player games, not MMOs. Even the IDEA that you can do something exclusively or make something unique implies a design failure.
=> The idea is akin to selling spaceships as per Star Citizen only with a caveat of the Franchise system.
2: To the extent possible that's how we want to build our game - player action creates and destroys.
=> This fulfils a role of a secret society or group with it's own rules/guidelines for members
4: Everything has to have a cost otherwise there will be an infinite supply and the world will suck.
=> Franchise cost and membership allowance
5: Expect that if a thing can be done, it will be done many, many times.
=> see previous
6: Not necessarily. Some people will make art for art's sake. Some game systems exist just to be fun.
=> This fits.
This is why we need to think about systems you can do MANY TIMES and that can be done in PARALLEL by MANY PEOPLE.
1: How will this work if 50 people have to all do it in series or in parallel?
=> With the group's small size and membership according to guidelines when using such templates this needs to be human-managed and agreed according to the group's rules of conduct between themselves.
2: How would a smart player who wanted to abuse this rule exploit it to cause someone else pain?
=> Potentially only sub players +2yrs gain access to the above Franchise possibility. Trusted players need to be found to run these Franchises and have management available if a member deviates too far from the guidelines eg bounty or more.
3: What kind of behavior would naturally emerge in a world where your rule was implemented - what's the effect of your cause?
=> Spefific increase in danger during say travel in the case of Lycanthropes adding to the diversity of the world. Potential market for silver weapons.
Some guidelines to help with ideas likely to attract a lot of support from your peers:
1: Should result in a system, not a one-time action. Remember that we need things characters can do thousands of times, and by tens of thousands of characters in parallel.
2: Should create meaningful human interaction. Something you do that nobody else ever knows about isn't helpful.
3: Should involve group action. An easy way to ensure #2, and leads to interesting potential connections to large game systems like economy, warfare or hex development.
4: Should be classifiable as exploration, development, domination or adventure content.
5: The wider the set of characters that can use the idea the broader support for that idea will be. You're asking people to make either/or tradeoffs, so you need to consider who would vote for a feature for you that meant some feature for them would not happen.
To address:
1. This is a method that could scaled according to multiple races/templates even if there are population limits per category.
2. Meaningful in forming specific motivations and characters to inhabit the world as additions to the main plot-line of civilization vs wilderness. Each character (race/template may take up additional roles according to some particular motivation that is IC).
3. Yes forms a player cooperative network around a specific interest and high engagement targetted for those players to run their own subset of the game reality.
4. Given this is the support cast these roles may well be closer to exploration/adventure than the main plotline of domination though they might interact at that level marginally depending on the category. For example with a limited membership base, the resource raising to fund investment of their particular area of the game world could be a driving common motivation to provide services in game for gain.
5. This is the key, the blueprint is for expanding the market appeal but also focusing on forging specific player collectives invested in the game and in particular a specific section of it.
##Acknowledgements##
DeaconWulf: https://pathfinderonlinecrowdforging.ideascale.com/a/dtd/Acquired-Templates /38044-30320
Bluddwulf
Andius the Afflicted: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2r7cq?Vampires-and-Werewolves-How-to-Viably-Add
Ryan Dancey (many posts!)
Authors: Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway (Necromancers of the Northwest): A Necromancer’s Grimoire: Märchen der Daemonwulf ~ Alex Riggs, Joshua Zaback, Justin Holloway (highly recommended)
An American Werewolf In London (great fun!)
The Howling
OGL (This is a great idea)
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Goblin Squad Member
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To bypass the wall of text for a quick impression:-
A fictional sequence of events:
1. AvenaOats asks Goblinworks how much it would cost to implement changing a player into a wolf with an account system
2. There could be a minor sub option to finance this option in addition to skill-training.
3. The franchise for say Lycanthropes is signed between AvenaOats and Goblinworks after a detailed schema of how this template would perform in game.
4. AvenaOats headhunts other players who want to be part of this cooperative who own the license to the Lycanthrope franchise in game exclusively and who wish to fund it's continued development from basic eg wolf form and suitable stats towards eg what is perhaps envisioned in "Marchen der Daemonwulf" with fully over 50 feats etc etc.
5. This process is replicated for other races and templates with a/c management and other necessary dev stuff.
6. Part of the exclusivity contract includes code of conduct of such players performing these roles as per "good form" according to the lore. It also limits the player population of such cooperatives proportional to the total population in some suitable measure.
To me this suggests a method of implementing more, crowdforging specifically sub-commmunities, using the principles of gradualism of development and parallel funding with development that we've already seen. It also explores ways in which different players can contribute to the drama in different societies atst as being normal members of the main drama (dominination and settlement acquisition).
Tear to pieces as you see fit.
dislike
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Goblin Squad Member
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dislike
I did say "tear to pieces", not "see a corpse 400m away and wrinkle your nose at it." But thanks for reading.
To add: I expect there should be strong resistance to the notion of Goblinworks "selling off aspects/parts" of the game to certain parts of the player-base. I hope it's a suitably contentious idea that your purchase of access to the game world is not the same as purchase of rights to all of it?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What happens when the franchisee decides to stop paying? Do all the lycanthropes suddenly get cured, or is GW stuck supporting a feature which is no longer being funded?
Developing a feature in an MMO isn't a one-time investment. It's a permanent commitment. That has to be figured into any attempt to innovate the development process.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If the franchisee moves on and abandons their account the lycanthrope will no longer appear until such a time that the franchise is actively renewed. However the system remains the property of GW and could be reinstated at their discretion.
I think Avena's thought and well-developed considerations are more than worthy of our serious attention and discussion.
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Goblin Squad Member
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That's right, it's effectively licensed during the contract which has funded it up to a certain point of development and can be taken on by different members in the current cooperative or a new one if that folds. It's also intended not to be a static relationship but one where members are arguing their corner and that probably has it's own internal dramas, all healthy stuff. Neither is it a replacement for the main drama of the main races struggles with settlements. For example a lycanthrope can be such and be any (or most of) the other alignments and player groups bar a few moons per month. Other concepts would ideally "fit" alongside in minor manner too. For example Vampires might have a blood quotient per month instead and only be active after dark. Other concepts may have different approaches, perhaps alts for say Goblins if they create their habitations, perhaps even aping certain escalation processes?
The idea here is to focus on a part of the community that focuses on a part of crowdforging. Secondly there's an attempt to reintroduce genuine RP and theatre of the mind (as well as the gamer type who likes the more crunchy stuff of domination which PFO is already catering for with the main races (main cast). Part of the idea of player-ownership is the choreography of rules of acting on these character concepts by a small group with a high level of agreement to meet certain standards that could not be worked into the implementation without this human-level of interaction and agreement and coordination and mutual shared partnership.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Given your estimate is in the ballpark, no contest.
Depending on what the franchise is, then it might not be in the ballpark. If we waited until, for example, after druids gain shapeshift and rangers gain their pets, then most if not all the asset elements may be readily present or inexpensively achievable.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I was just ballparking the design and art costs of adding werewolves. You can cut the design costs a little bit if you use the rules for wild shape, but I don't think anyone wants that any more than they want firearms that use the same abilities as bows. The art costs cannot be reduced without significant negative effect.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So good conversation, the feasibility is the first step on the road.
The idea here is to ape an MVP approach, to ape a crowdfunding and crowdsourcing (aka crowdforging) approach and to solve how to include certain character concepts with market appeal in a suitable manner eg Jedi are rare as per the lore.
Using the eg of Lycanthropes, as above:
1. MVP = wolf model + lunar cycle + corpse eating + membership
That is the basic version suggested. So the art assets are reduced considerable using work already available. Ownership needs to be controlled and monetized via a franchise, this allows the work of the AI to shift onto players ie no cost and also for players to regulate this usage with their own rules for members to perform the role suitably. Again mininum required from the devs and more put on the shoulders of the player cooperate to cooperate. The additional cost would be to pool towards future work, perhaps art or audio or a feat or two. Stuff the cooperative could work and pay a minor addition monthly towards. The account management could be universal framework for other franchises for other groups and would be a Gonlinworks cost but a functionality for groups to regulate their concept's roles in the game.
But it would depend how feasible a very basic version could be provided and if Goblinworks see a fruitful investment in franchises where players cooperate in forging future additional roles for these minor / support cast (other races, templates etc) for eg vampires would need a particular blood-sucking animation as an MVP and some attack stat boost and perhaps daylight toast!
As to the wolf form, imo as a basic starter it is fine for the werewolf. If successful a hybrid animation could be considered. But basic outline of transformation + lunar cycle + corpse feasting seems very do-able? If so and a cooperative could set up maybe the first of many?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Tbh, that accusation has already been made about the base MVP of PFO. You have to start somewhere. For those that want character concepts and are willing to pay for them/work on them it may be an attenuated solution that finally delivers.
To me, a wolf + corpse feed + full moon is more than enough to work with for Lycanthropes along with forging a community around that concept. Other concepts may have more initial entry conditions or if lucky less.
The key however, is the smaller number of players working on this and running it in a form that benefits the game world and allows them to run a concept they would prefer to have an option on.
The traditional approach of eg ESO werewolves or SWTOR Jedi is incredibly poor service to those IPs or character concepts, and hence to the fans. The way I see it, in Pathfinder different 3rd parties can work on these things and release them. Let's see if such an approach is possible with PFO?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea has a HIGH risk rate of turning folks off the game, and will divide the community a lot.
This idea is like the vocal minorities getting what they want while the majority don't like it, but say nothing so they don't appear like a jerk.
Further more groups paying for mechanics only they would use, will make other players view them as privileged butt-holes wrecking the game and Goblin Works as a greedy corrupt company thinking about getting your money at the expense of the other players.
Hence why I say this is an awful idea.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some people will feel that way. Some will like the idea. Some won't care. As long as it doesn't detract from the other development, it isn't a bad idea.
I'd suggest that maybe the franchise should be of a limited duration, since it might be things that the developers want to include int he future, and they won't want to give them up forever. Whether that means one year or five or more would have to be up to the developers. At the end of that time, the franchise would cease and the material would become core content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The idea has a HIGH risk rate of turning folks off the game, and will divide the community a lot.
This idea is like the vocal minorities getting what they want while the majority don't like it, but say nothing so they don't appear like a jerk.
Further more groups paying for mechanics only they would use, will make other players view them as privileged butt-holes wrecking the game and Goblin Works as a greedy corrupt company thinking about getting your money at the expense of the other players.
Hence why I say this is an awful idea.
Pay to win is a losing idea that destroys games. And that's what this reeks of to me.I agree with the above statement 200%
That's (all the above responses) has pretty much already been said of the current plan, I think is accurate? I've read enough comments on PFO by people to come to that conclusion with confidence. Raise P2W yet don't mention Richard Bartle's recent prediction on F2P or Dancey's Hybrid model and the huge potential for paying customers above and below the standard sub price...
We'll see, the paradigm shift I'm looking out for here, is main cast and support cast and bringing the theatre of the mind into what is currently viewed as Fantasy EVE ie spreadsheets in settlements.
The cost of a limited audience I don't think is a perceptial one but a financial feasibility one, offset to my mind by a benefit of stronger RP and community initiative around a targetted area of the IP.
That is a summary of the argument I am try to convey. I hope to continue to and I hope there is more constructive criticism of it. Most ideas fail afterall. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's a certain attempt to build sub-communities as per a Franchise that is a part of the proportion of the total population. That could vary between different character concepts. Perhaps a Liche would be extremely rare whereas Goblins might be a full settlement aping an escalation settlement. I think the idea is to ensure that each community is answerable to itself and this is why the exclusivity is necessary and that community members could be a part of all or any other settlement/CC player-group and any of these Franchises on the side.
The time-limit is something considered already and so it's good to see others thinking along these lines too. But I think expansion is the answer, ie expansion of the player population base to increases spaces per franchise and also expansion of more franchises depending on if there are enough of the community that want to crowdforge their own "3rd party" aspect and bring it alive in the PFO game world and run it. More common races might be a time-limit one with earlier members forging these and then upgrade subs allowing membership, again depending on what makes sense to their particular frame-of-reference as Golarion actors. Goblins could ape their own settlements find small niches in other settlements eg rubbish dumps etc so time-limit might work for that franchise and others?
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Goblin Squad Member
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If what you want is mechanically no better than what is available to subscribers, then fine. But the minute you introduce mechanical advantage for money, you enter into a flawed system. You'll end up with a game where the only people who are left are the ones that can pay to win. That is not the equivalent of a subscription model.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On the one hand it's good to see people become uncomfortable at this proposition (as above) but on the other it may be a sign of bad communication from the OP.
There's no hint of P2W, it's expansion of content and monetization of content... but really the core of the idea is about human organization producing positive results, enabled by a few additions by Goblinworks so that humans organizing support cast ie content for others but experience for themselves under the franchise contract rules. I'd suggest it's super-sub level of payment for access for example analogous to paying for an uber-spaceship on sale for say $150 per person.
The problem being, a different gradual financing and developing approach is needed as we don't have SC's astronomical level of interest (McQuaid: "I should have got into the spaceships business.") where Goblinworks can churn out these things per 1m$ reached. There's also the fact these characters are part of drama by playing roles, eg vampires need to be bloodsucking and not chilling in the pub with a bloody-mary at last orders, maybe in a Pratchett novel but in a Golarion setting I believe they are predators of the unwary during moonless nights in Sylvan forests.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's no hint of P2W
I'm going to stop you right there. You used Werewolves as an example. But also referred to vampires and liches. These are things that, yes, come with drawbacks. However they also (straight up looking at Pathfinder lore and mechanics themselves) are far more powerful than their normal Human/Elf/Dwarf/short people counterparts. Far more powerful. If you want a simple reskinning of characters into these various monsters, that's one thing. But what you're talking about is an entire mechanical change into these creatures. These more POWERFUL creatures. That people PAY to have. And that's where I draw the line. That is 100% P2W.
Star Citizen is a bad example to bring up, because that is in fact paying for advantage. The more you pay, the bigger advantage you have. P2W. If I'm getting this all right, the grand idea behind all of this is that you want people to be able to pay money to be able to decide what PFO adds to their game next. Which I can't see happening without being a huge financial investment. I'm sure if go you go GW with a million dollars and ask them to make playable vampires, they might humor you. But letting an incredibly small portion of their market make those decisions without huge financial backing? Probably not. But that's why the subscription model exists. It allows for steady revenue and the ability to continue to add content to the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You seem to see content development as the end game and do not see it as a way to grow the player base over time by making the game world more interesting to a larger group who will pay to get it all.
Putting some game content in the hands of a few would take away from what would make PFO interesting to a larger player base in the long run and make the game less profitable and have less content for those that play without paying into a co-op.
GW would have to limit what a co-op can buy or they will be losing content that they would market to the entire player base. In effect a co-op could only purchase game content that GW was not planning on using or GW is giving away long term profit potential from many for a one time payment by a few people.
Suppose GW sells playable goblins to a co-op , they have now financed the development but given up future profit for themselves from new players who subscribe to play a goblin.
It's all just my opinion on what works , if GW can't market new content to everyone they will struggle to survive. We all have our hopes set on future content being added so we are willing to put up with less than we want.
It's a neat idea, but I don't think it would work in this game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assuming new races/classes won't be part of the normal development cycle covered by whatever subscription /fees GW already has in mind for the game and additional funding is needed I'd rather see something along the lines of a pre-order system via the microtrans store to crowdfund the race/class then what you are suggesting.
I don't mind players crowdsourcing the ideas and content development but I can't see any company allowing a small group of individuals to have the kind of control you want over in game content especially when the exclusivity you seek could cost the parent company, GW in this case, existing and new subscribers and a loss of income on top of the potential income they could generate selling content to everyone.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There's no hint of P2WI'm going to stop you right there. You used Werewolves as an example. But also referred to vampires and liches. These are things that, yes, come with drawbacks. However they also (straight up looking at Pathfinder lore and mechanics themselves) are far more powerful than their normal Human/Elf/Dwarf/short people counterparts. Far more powerful.
PFO has already modified a great deal of Pathfinder IP to make the transition online if you check back briefly... I think pulling out P2W is still a knee-jerk comment where/who-ever it is found without suitable construction of argument?
But - the point is taken where you provide useful feedback, considering relative power, so we can work together on this aspect you raise as a important area to think about. And that is why if we go with the nature of these things, they need to be limited in number at any one time both to represent them faithfully but also for game purposes if they are dangerous and they will be if players are RP'ing them faithfully - oh yes no puny AI!
But that's why the subscription model exists. It allows for steady revenue and the ability to continue to add content to the game.
It does for the wider universal crowdforging. But this motion is only just beginning for this direction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You seem to see content development as the end game and do not see it as a way to grow the player base over time by making the game world more interesting to a larger group who will pay to get it all.
Putting some game content in the hands of a few would take away from what would make PFO interesting to a larger player base in the long run and make the game less profitable and have less content for those that play without paying into a co-op.
GW would have to limit what a co-op can buy or they will be losing content that they would market to the entire player base. In effect a co-op could only purchase game content that GW was not planning on using or GW is giving away long term profit potential from many for a one time payment by a few people.
Suppose GW sells playable goblins to a co-op , they have now financed the development but given up future profit for themselves from new players who subscribe to play a goblin.
It's all just my opinion on what works , if GW can't market new content to everyone they will struggle to survive. We all have our hopes set on future content being added so we are willing to put up with less than we want.
Well argued. For the main game, the main races and roles are available. I think this is main concern.
For the support cast, they don't fit into the above if they are implemented properly or they do in a limited fashion, for example Goblins don't have access to LG if I'm correct on that or some other difference that none of the other main races have.
To take the vampire and Lycanthrope examples these are in those forms monsters and hence are and should be even more limited again.
But this fits with a smaller controlling group of players who invest and run these operations as part-time monsters eg full moon or some moonless nights for vampires as additions to their main character. Expanding their role to that of main cast main races both does not fit the lore of the world (the correct frame of reference for these actors) nor does it make it possible to ensure a tight-knit group runs these characters according to the appropriate limitations as part of the game world and as part of their own (if you like) secret society meeting to further the actual operation of these characters in our construct world as well as brainstorming suggests to Goblinworks for development according to incremental additions.
But I think Decius has come to the sharp end of this idea, if the initial feasibility is not possible. That makes or breaks it. Of course a sudden surge in support might help!
Coming back to exclusive putting people off, to my mind there's a functional reason (RP tightly controlled above) but also the fact these Franchises are not part of the main game and are merely for groups to add additional membership bodies towards regulating in game as part of bringing the world alive, they're mostly providing CONTENT for other players in the main cast/main races aspect of the game. They fit a smaller niche, separate to the settlement game that all races can interact in how they wish.
I think once people get over the notion that all the game is open to them, and realize different people will labour at different things to bring the whole together everyone benefits? What might happen for example the Vampires due to their low proportion when adding new members might charge more to those members if competition for places is higher and that then can feed into funding for the Franchise? Part of it might be a standing fee to Goblinworks and part of it pooling towards development goals - it depends how realistic some of those goals are.
This approach as you can see has limitations, but I don't believe we'll get anywhere on this subject merely putting it up to the full population, it turns into everyone gets something or no-one does, instead of a specific passionate focused group get something that enables them to grow their group around a bare-bones, workable concept and focus their energies around developing and running it and indirectly benefitting everyone else as "content".
On Goblins the Franchise can vary per specific case by case example. Goblins could easily gain huge support and even if initially limited could develop to a point where they become more open. It depends how well they as a race are to integrate into the settlement wars is my guess. Initially I'd see them as being a player run faction/escalation. But someone else will have to come up and collude on that "franchise" with Goblinworks.
I'm going to work on Lycanthropes as first mover!
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's a neat idea, but I don't think it would work in this game.
I'm not sure at this moment it will work, but seeing if it might! For example Kobolds, you'd need to find out how they should fit in the PFO game, perhaps they are as easy as another main race? Or perhaps they are like Goblins with some limitations but again could be part of the settlement wars? Or idk enough about them, maybe they are a lower category down and hence a different solution to their implementation is required such as limited proportional population, specific areas of the game world, specific activities absord these creature's time and energies? What would be the MVP of Kobolds? How many players would a Kobold Collective need to gain support (and chipping in) from to get to that MVP stage?
And finally wouldn't it be fun to be a 3rd party working with Goblinworks to formulate the concept of these characters into the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Assuming new races/classes won't be part of the normal development cycle covered by whatever subscription /fees GW already has in mind for the game and additional funding is needed I'd rather see something along the lines of a pre-order system via the microtrans store to crowdfund the race/class then what you are suggesting.
I don't mind players crowdsourcing the ideas and content development but I can't see any company allowing a small group of individuals to have the kind of control you want over in game content especially when the exclusivity you seek could cost the parent company, GW in this case, existing and new subscribers and a loss of income on top of the potential income they could generate selling content to everyone.
Summed up well. The idea in-part formed from this great article on depth vs breadth and wondering in part amongst other ideas how to solve it:-
1) Quality (& hence value) of adding many systems in a game concerning breadth
2) Emergent Behaviour, regulating this (use players by exclusivity)
3) Competition from divergent parts of the population on priority (provide a group a specific target and industry in a given direction):
By contrast, broad games have a broad player base as well, and all of them want more and more interesting things to do when they consume their favorite kind of gameplay. In Ultima Online, crafters and tamers demanded as much design attention as combatants, and I'm sure the same can be said in Free Realms for fans of the soccer and mail delivery games. It is harder to improve the game on multiple tracks, and keep all fan bases happy while still maintaining the game's core balance integrity. Adding new features and game systems to increase the breadth of the game is always an option, and is typically popular, but it also risks increasing the complexity of the game -- increasing the number of unexpected interactions that need to be considered, balanced for, and tested.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only way I could see something like this working would be if
- * the core game would already have been implemented (i.e. all core systems which hopefully one day will make PFO a complete sandbox experience have already been implemented) in order to not endanger the development of the core product
* you can come up with the necessary funding (or significant part thereof) for a new system / feature upfront, i.e. can "show the money" to the developer before opening the dialogue
* you are willing to accept that the result of that dialogue would be that the developer will retain the eventual control over the system / feature and that it will eventually become part of the core game (potentially after an initial period during which the newly developed system / feature would be behind a pay wall to justify the initial investment / share the spoils between the developer and investors)
Please note that I do not believe the "monster play" approach in and by itself is flawed, at least as long as it is not confused with the character development. I actually believe that it could be a huge asset for GW to put some development resources to creating a general monster play system (not limited to any specific monster type) because it could solve the potential issue with lack of (meaningful) content, which we may encounter due to the various negative consequences imposed on starting and/or losing fights with PC characters as long as there would be some incentives for player to participate in the monster play. An easy way to add some "lycanthrope" flavor to such a generic system would be for example to make lycanthropes playable only during a certain phase of the lunar cycle.
It's a neat idea, but I don't think it would work in this game.I'm not sure at this moment it will work, but seeing if it might! For example Kobolds, you'd need to find out how they should fit in the PFO game, perhaps they are as easy as another main race? Or perhaps they are like Goblins with some limitations but again could be part of the settlement wars? Or idk enough about them, maybe they are a lower category down and hence a different solution to their implementation is required such as limited proportional population, specific areas of the game world, specific activities absord these creature's time and energies? What would be the MVP of Kobolds? How many players would a Kobold Collective need to gain support (and chipping in) from to get to that MVP stage?
And finally wouldn't it be fun to be a 3rd party working with Goblinworks to formulate the concept of these characters into the game.
This is the sort of thing I'd support this system get used for—nothing playable, just monsters and stuff. But honestly, I just really don't see it as viable. Best of luck with it.