I just had a blast attending a con for the first time in several years, all the more fun because I actually got to play instead of exhausting myself running slots all weekend :)
However, there was one thing that repeatedly detracted from my enjoyment of the games. At four of the five slots I played, one of the players was a Venture-something, and in every case it detracted from the game. It didn't ruin it, it just detracted from it.
- The first issue was the rules commentary. In every case they repeatedly interrupted the game with rules corrections, observations, and commentary. Unfortunately, this didn't really add anything to the game - as these were all tables of level 1 and level 2 characters, many of them beginners, there weren't really any gamebreaking discussions that needed to be had about misinterpretations of rules that couldn't have been handled by the GM. I'm quite sure that a few beginner players were getting rules wrong from time to time, but I view that as the responsibility of the actual GM, not someone who's decided they're the assistant GM.
- Secondly, they like to tell stories. Everyone's got a version of the "let me tell you about my character" story, and I've got several more now, as well as a number of stories about this convention or that scenario or some such :)
- Third, please, please don't pick fights with other players at the table, even if you do think they're cheating. It's a terrible derailment, and if you believe it's an issue, bring it up privately after the game rather than derailing the game with a stream of corrections and comments to the GM.
- Last, if you're going to replay an event, please don't soak up a spot at the table without contributing. Yes, I am aware you know exactly what's supposed to happen, but that doesn't mean you can't contribute, it just means it's harder for you - and it's not fair to everyone else who is contributing to the success if you're just a ride-along.
Again, I want to say that I had a blast and am looking forward to more games after a few years out of the whole scene, but I wanted to offer my observations.
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Rules commentary can go both ways.
In my almost two years of doing PFS I've gone from remaining silent, to becoming an outspoken rules nazi, to toning it back again. VOs have it even tougher. If someone is misinterpreting a rule, and runs a character in a certain way that's technically against the rules, and the VO doesn't speak up, then that player can show up at the next table and say, "well, I did it in front of the VO, and they didn't say anything about it."
Or, even worse, they build a character around a misunderstanding of the rules, and it blows up a few levels later when it's too late to change anything.
The GM should be the one in charge of rulings and running the game, and should prevent derailments, but at my most recent convention even I learned a couple new things, and I wouldn't have if someone didn't speak up about them.
YMMV. I'd probably sit down with the VOs that you played with and bring their behavior to their attention, rather than generalizing their behavior to that of all VOs.
(good stuff)
I've not new at this, and I'm with you, which is why I said "please consider whether it will improve the enjoyment" rather than "please be quiet."
I've run games at conventions for years, just not as part of PFS, and the primary thing I've kept in mind is that these are paying customers.
Yeah, it's pretty thankless work running tables, and yeah, you typically hear nothing but complaints, but in my opinion the key to it all is to keep the paying customers coming back, especially at the beginner tables.
So I stand by my statements. If it's so horribly scenario-breaking that you absolutely cannot stop from saying something, sure, say something. But how often is that actually the case, and how often would it be better to approach the player afterwards and say "hey, I noticed you did X. Did you actually realize it works like ..."
Frankly, I view the proper response to "well, I did it in front of the VO, and they didn't say anything about it" to be "I'm sorry they didn't notice that time, but I'm afraid that's how it actually works."
Anyways, that's still my two cents :)
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Glad you got to play for a change! I'm looking forward to a bit of that myself ;)
Personally, I agree with all of your bullet points.
- When time is off the essence or a GM needs to speak, table talk of any kind needs to die down.
- When you have a problem with another player keep it to a minimum, and resolve it off the table.
- If you end up replaying (for credit or to make a legal table) definitely, definitely, do nothing to spoil the experience. To do so is shameful.
My only qualm is that you're limiting yourself to VOs! I think that everyone should be held to these standards, but by saying that VOs did this, it makes me assume that a) other players don't make these mistakes or that b) VOs are more prone to them. Both of which I'd disagree with.
From my experience, that simply hasn't been the case. Most of the time, people that misbehave like this are simply regular PFS goers.
You both make excellent points, and I didn't mean to imply that only the VOs can be an issue - but I remember from running our convention campaign that the staff typically has a greater influence on the tone of any given table than any random player, and they need to be extra congnizant of their actions at the table.
Thanks!
-burt
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Speaking as a GM, I would rather someone point out the correct rule every time. That way I learn to do better, the player learns to do better, and I learn to be on the lookout for other people using that rule incorrectly. New players are the perfect ones to correct, because you need to get them playing the right way before their mistakes become bad habits, which then become "I know it works this way. I can't find it, but that's how we've always done it."
Everything else, I'm pretty much right with you. In combat may not be the best time to tell your epic tale of victory (unless you're a bard). Contributing nothing to the scenario from fear of spoiling it can be just as bad as spoiling it if the players are truly stuck and your character could come up with a solution.
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Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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I'll admit that WAAAAAAY before I became a VO, I was a Rules Guy. For a while I considered myself a lawyer until I looked it up, and they generally only use rules to benefit themselves/their party whereas I would point out rules that hurt the party as well. :) I figured the rules are there for a reason so we should be using them correctly whether for weal or woe. Since becoming a VO, I've noticed its a really annoying habit, and try to keep quiet about it, unless the GM or another player asks.
I also generally try to not play games I've already GMd because of your concerns. The first time I did as a VO sadly I admit I performed like you said. I felt horrible about it later. It was a scenario I'd run quite a few times but had never played, and it was obvious that the GM either hadn't read through the scenario very well, or just kept missing things that people needed to know for their faction missions. I tried to nudge him subtly, but he wasn't taking the hints.
I've since gotten better, and if I do play a game that I've run/played before, I either play stupid characters and don't participate in decisions or I play really smart characters and use their Knowledges to help me metagame less since they know things, but then I still try to not be the one to make major decisions.
Its sometimes a hard line to walk, but first someone has to realize that they're doing it, before they can address it.
So thank you for the post Burt, hopefully it will help some GMs/VOs out there to maybe realize that they've done similar things and might help them to adjust and make their games more fun because of it.
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.... I frequently replace my red V-C shirt with a general paizo shirt.
SO it is inappropriate that I take off my red shirt(Not replacing it with another shirt of course, duh), tie it around my head like a bandana and say "Wooooah Brother's.... Let's get it on" and proceed to RP Macho man for the next 4 hours? - Just kidding... (note to self, make Barbarian/Brawler name Randy the Savage for season 6)
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I'll admit I have moments of being the 'rules guy', though I do attempt to keep those few and far between.
One thing I dont like, though, and I dont mean to make it sound like Im passing the buck here, but there are times when rules disagreements come up at the table that Im not a part of (meaning both Im not a part of that disagreement when Im at that table, or that Im not even AT THAT TABLE) and the people feel compelled to get me to rule on it. I dont feel like its my place to do that unless its a life-and-death matter.
This kind of thing happened a LOT at our last con to the point where I was about to freak out on someone if they needed to come ask me something about their table while I was trying to play at or run my own.
gbonehead, I hope to see you at PaizoCon or elsewhere so I can offer you a better table experience. :)
Doing my darndest to make it out there someday!
The big challenge for me is the whole West Coast thing; I can make Origins work because I have friends in the area, but $flight+$hotel+$con=$holycrap for me right now :)
Depending on school and guard obligations, I may be able to make a trip to Origins at some point. ;)
Now THAT would be awesome.
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Gbonehead,
I quite agree with your bullet points, However as it has been said up thread, such behavior isn't limited to VOs.
Like Mr. Miller up thread, I often wear a goblin shirt or something like that; Although with me, it isn't really a conscious choice, I just like the goblin shirts more then the "Red" shirts, um VC shirts.
I'm glad you are getting a chance to play.
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I correct rules all the time. Sometimes too much. I know some rules very good, and if those rules are used incorrectly I am quick to say they are not right. But just like Mr. Clingenpeel, I point out the incorrect rules that are worse for the players as well. Infact I am more likely to point them out because I want a fair honest challenge.