‘Relevant Stat’ for SU powers aka do Druids just not get a Relevant Stat bonus while in Wild Shape ?

[Yogsogoth]

I have a question about some missing rules (or at least one’s that I’ve been unable to find) …

When a 15th level Druid uses Wild Shape to change in to a Huge Air Elemental (elemental body III) and then while in that form starts the Whirlwind ability – what should the DC to avoid the Whirlwind damage and the secondary effect be ?

Is it …

a) 10 + (½ HD) + Str Bonus - the default Whirlwind DC

b) 10 + (Spell level of Elemental Body III) + Str Bonus - a modified version Whirlwind DC to account for the Druid using a SU to take the form

c) 10 + (Spell level of Elemental Body III) + Wis Bonus - a modified version Whirlwind DC to account for the Druid using a SU to take the form and that the Druid is Wis based magic

d) 10 + (Spell level of Elemental Body III) with NO stat bonus because Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like and nowhere in RAW does it say what the default stat for SU should be – therefore there is none

[Jeraa]

Quote:

a) 10 + (½ HD) + Str Bonus - the default Whirlwind DC

The correct answer is A.

Also, the default DC of an ability, regardless of type (Ex or Su) is 10 + 1/2 Hit Dice + relevant ability score. Spell-like abilities uses spell level instead of 1/2 hit dice. I believe it states so elsewhere, but it definitely says so in the Bestiary, in the section dealing with creating new monsters/

Quote:

Most special abilities that cause damage, such as breath weapons, give a save (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will depending on the ability). The DC for almost all special abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 the creature's Hit Dice + a relevant ability modifier (usually Constitution or Charisma depending on the ability). Special abilities that add to melee and ranged attacks generally do not allow a save, as they rely on the attacks hitting to be useful.

[James Risner]

Yogsogoth wrote:

c) 10 + (Spell level of Elemental Body III) + Wis Bonus - a modified version Whirlwind DC to account for the Druid using a SU to take the form and that the Druid is Wis based magic

I use this one.

Quote:

The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

[Usagi Yojimbo]

James Risner wrote:

Yogsogoth wrote:

c) 10 + (Spell level of Elemental Body III) + Wis Bonus - a modified version Whirlwind DC to account for the Druid using a SU to take the form and that the Druid is Wis based magic

I use this one.

Quote:

The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.

C is correct. Wild shape is 'as the spell' and the polymorph rules tell you how to calculate the DC for any special ability.

Though A would be more cool. :) Maybe you can talk your DM into using that, if you aren't in PFS.

[Yogsogoth]

No such luck ... My DM is the guy who posted on this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfkr&page=2?Wild-Shape-and-save-DC) and is currently ruling D ... "You don't get any because the RAW don't say you do". Hope we can get an 'official' enough ruling before our game on Friday night :-D

[James Risner]

It is very unlikely any official answer can be obtained before Friday. It would have been very unlikely you get an answer before end of year, but PDT just did two heated issues FAQs today.

In any event, if your GM ruled it one way. I'd recommend just changing to a more suitable character. Something you and he can agree upon rules related?

[Jeraa]

I stand corrected. I didn't check the rules for polymorph magic. The correct answer is C, not A like I said above.

[wraithstrike]

The answer is C because that is what the book says.

[DrakeRoberts]

Yogsogoth wrote:

No such luck ... My DM is the guy who posted on this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfkr&page=2?Wild-Shape-and-save-DC) and is currently ruling D ... "You don't get any because the RAW don't say you do". Hope we can get an 'official' enough ruling before our game on Friday night :-D

Really? I thought he'd only posted that as an absurdist statement intended to rile up management into actually answering this one finally (and presumably doomed to fail). That someone would actually make such a house rule... boggles my mind.

You may want to get out while you can....

That all said, I can see where someone could question using Wisdom, because the casting stat of the class shouldn't necessarily impact the main stat of other abilities given to the class. Most do, mind you, but Arcanist is a good example of one for which this isn't the case. Plus, what if the Wild Shape was part of a non-casting class? What would you do (if they still didn't clarify a stat anyhow)? Still, some stat should clearly be added..... if you're home-ruling that this is not the case, then you're not trying to be reasonable, you're trying to prove a point or something.

If I were in this game, I would insist that a sensible stat be chosen. Wisdom (due to main class casting stat), Charisma (as this is often default for abilities), the relevant stat of the monster ability (Con for Poison, Str for Trample, etc.). If not that then even using the default for the creature makes (little but) more sense than that ruling. If the GM refused to budge, I'd probably consider a new character, not because the old one becomes completely unplayable, but because it likely shows the GMs mentality on what Druid strength needs to be at (aka nerfed).

[Usagi Yojimbo]

Yogsogoth wrote:

No such luck ... My DM is the guy who posted on this thread (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qfkr&page=2?Wild-Shape-and-save-DC) and is currently ruling D ... "You don't get any because the RAW don't say you do". Hope we can get an 'official' enough ruling before our game on Friday night :-D

Wait, the guy who wrote that he was a bad DM who liked messing with players?

...yeah. Paizo aren't going to do an emergency FAQ for something like that- the rules are clear. Even if they were not clear, we know that spells cannot be cast without a casting stat.

You'll probably want to look at things to do that don't involve save DCs. Or, if the DM is really going to house-rule this, you should get to rebuild if you choose.