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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
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I'm hoping for an answer to whether or not crit-activated abilities can be triggered via weapon combat maneuvers (i.e. disarm/sunder/trip) (WCMs) or Aid Another (AA). I think the question is best boiled down to: "Are crit threats possible with WCMs and AA?" (Also in this category are opposed attack rolls that don't do damage, such as the Swashbuckler's Parry or the Duelist's Parry--see below.)
The main argument FOR:
1) WCMs and AA involve attack rolls and use your weapon's bonuses.
The main arguments AGAINST:
1) Some argue that crits are not allowed on attack rolls that don't do HP/ability damage.
2) Crit threats might be limited to the "attack" action.
3) Crit threats might only be activated when attacking AC (but Aid Another does attack AC 10).
For more arguments for and against, as well as references for each point, you can go to this post here.
Examples of abilities that would benefit from this:
1) Halfling Swashbuckler with the Helpful trait using the Bodyguard feat to regain a panache point with a critical Aid Another (credit: HSalgo)
2) Swashbuckler using the Parry Deed (which does no damage) to a regain panache point with a critical parry (credit: HSalgo)
3) Half-orc/Orc barbarian using the Gore Fiend feat to use a trip+reach weapon (e.g. the guisarme) to regain a round of rage when critically tripping opponents who move through the threatened area (credit: HSalgo)
4) Aldori Swordlord Fighter archetype whose disarms do damage via Disarming Strike (damage that could feasibly be doubled on a crit) (credit: Flynn Walker, here)
5) Tripper using the Greater Trip and Butterfly's Sting feats to grant a critical hit to an ally taking an Attack of Opportunity against a critically tripped target (credit: kinevon, here)
Any input would be appreciated. Someone previously flagged the question for the FAQ; if you guys think that it's worth it, please do so.
Critical threats are specific to the attack action. They don't exist for combat maneuvers or aiding another.
PRD wrote: Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. *emphasis mine
You can threaten on any attack roll, but you can only confirm if you hit the target's AC. Note, that's the target/s AC, not AC 10.
So, you can score a critical threat with just about anything, but you can only confirm against AC. Or if you had some way to auto confirm.
Auto hit with a natural 20? Sure. Critical hit? What, are you going to make the guy prone-er than he already is? Or disarmed-er even more than the normal disarm would do?
With aid another you are not really attacking anyone. You are making an attack roll to help someone else get a bonus.
Quantum Steve wrote: PRD wrote: Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target's Armor Class, and you have scored a “threat,” meaning the hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it's a critical hit, you immediately make an attempt to “confirm” the critical hit—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the confirmation roll also results in a hit against the target's AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit, it doesn't need to come up 20 again.) If the confirmation roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. *emphasis mine
You can threaten on any attack roll, but you can only confirm if you hit the target's AC. Note, that's the target/s AC, not AC 10.
So, you can score a critical threat with just about anything, but you can only confirm against AC. Or if you had some way to auto confirm. That quote is from the attack action section, not the attack roll section earlier in the book. I'd say that limits it to the attack action, not just any old attack roll. If it was meant to apply to any attack roll they'd put it in the attack roll section.
quantumsteve wrote: You can threaten on any attack roll, but you can only confirm if you hit the target's AC. Note, that's the target/s AC, not AC 10.
So, you can score a critical threat with just about anything, but you can only confirm against AC. Or if you had some way to auto confirm.
This is a bit of a weird and literal interpretation, but I guess it fits the RAW description. It feels... odd, though. Crit threats anywhere, but only confirming against enemy AC? I guess that has the same effect as dragonhunterq's comment below.
dragonhunterq wrote: That quote is from the attack action section, not the attack roll section earlier in the book. I'd say that limits it to the attack action, not just any old attack roll. If it was meant to apply to any attack roll they'd put it in the attack roll section. This is precisely why I have point #2--it looks like the description of threats is specifically for the attack action section. However, it does say "When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20" and not "When you take the attack action and get a natural 20," and WCMs and AA are both specifically described as attack rolls.
With that being said, Combat Maneuvers have a separate clause describing auto successes on natural 20s and auto fails on natural 1s, which is the other reason why I'd be willing to take this interpretation with additional agreement.
HangerFlying wrote: Auto hit with a natural 20? Sure. Critical hit? What, are you going to make the guy prone-er than he already is? Or disarmed-er even more than the normal disarm would do? I agree that a WCM or AA crit should not have any additional effect on its own. However, this fact should not necessarily prevent crit-activated abilities from happening. A particularly fancy parry could regain panache points, or a particularly spectacular trip could regain rage. (As I said previously, additional reasons for and against, including this one, are listed in this post.)
wraithstrike wrote: With aid another you are not really attacking anyone. You are making an attack roll to help someone else get a bonus. I agree with your statement, but I don't see how that helps answer the question. I will, however, agree that confirming an AA crit becomes almost trivial against an AC of 10, which is one of the other arguments that I listed in this post.
HSalgo wrote: dragonhunterq wrote: That quote is from the attack action section, not the attack roll section earlier in the book. I'd say that limits it to the attack action, not just any old attack roll. If it was meant to apply to any attack roll they'd put it in the attack roll section. This is precisely why I have point #2--it looks like the description of threats is specifically for the attack action section. However, it does say "When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20" and not "When you take the attack action and get a natural 20," and WCMs and AA are both specifically described as attack rolls.
With that being said, Combat Maneuvers have a separate clause describing auto successes on natural 20s and auto fails on natural 1s, which is the other reason why I'd be willing to take this interpretation with additional agreement.
HangerFlying wrote: Auto hit with a natural 20? Sure. Critical hit? What, are you going to make the guy prone-er than he already is? Or disarmed-er even more than the normal disarm would do? As I said in bold, additional arguments are listed with the link provided. This includes the fact that not having any additional affect with a WCM or AA critical hit should not necessarily bar crit-activated abilities from happening. A particularly fancy parry could regain panache points, or a particularly spectacular trip could regain rage.
wraithstrike wrote: With aid another you are not really attacking anyone. You are making an attack roll to help someone else get a bonus. I agree with your statement, but I don't see how that helps answer the question. You can't crit against something you are not attacking.
As for combat maneuvers if it also does damage then it can crit, but no damage means no crit since that is the purpose of the crit rules.
wraithstrike wrote: You can't crit against something you are not attacking.
As for combat maneuvers if it also does damage then it can crit, but no damage means no crit since that is the purpose of the crit rules.
It sounds to me like you're arguing for point #1--crits only happen when you're attacking and doing damage. I don't know if I agree with that entirely (because I still think that it isn't unreasonable to have spectacular actions of any sort reward you by trigger crit-activated abilities), but I certainly could see that point. Again, I'd also be willing to take this interpretation with additional agreement.
It's just a little frustrating because everyone seems to have a different viewpoint--for example, in my previous threads, at least one person was of the view that WCM and AA crits shouldn't matter, but that GMs should allow rolls if there are crit-triggered abilities since nothing explicitly bars them (source: James Risner, here).
(Sorry for the delay/change in the quoted text--I was editing a few things into my statement to make it sound a little less aggressive.)
The attack action uses an attack roll, same as aid another and WCMs use attack rolls.
All 3 action types refer back to the attack roll.
There is nothing in the 'attack roll' that refers forward to the 'attack action'. Therefore, there is no way to get from WCM or AA to the attack action and crits.
HSalgo wrote: It's just a little frustrating That's the beauty of people - always a different point of view and you did ask, so you only have yourself to blame! :)
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