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Can a kitsune lycanthrope change to his human aspect while in hybrid form (keeping the lycanthropic alignment and stats, and losing bite, but looking human)?
Can he do it the first night he is afflicted, when as a lycanthrope he is "locked" in animal form, but otherwise mantains the access to his regular racial and class abilities?
Firstly, I have trouble with Kitsune becoming lycanthropes as they are already shapechangers, though by the rules this isn't an issue.
This isn't really adequately covered, but as a GM I would say no. Simply because you shouldn't get the stat bonuses and to appear human (thus effectively having no drawback). However, there is no basis for a ruling that I can see clearly aside from a balance one (in my mind).
I would definitely say if you are afflicted and cannot control your transformation (such as that first time transformation) you definitely can't do it.
That's a great catch Victor.
Change Shape (Su) A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A creature cannot change shape to a form more than one size category smaller or larger than its original form. This ability functions as a polymorph spell, the type of which is listed in the creature's description, but the creature does not adjust its ability scores (although it gains any other abilities of the creature it mimics). Unless otherwise stated, it can remain in an alternate form indefinitely. Some creatures, such as lycanthropes, can transform into unique forms with special modifiers and abilities. These creatures do adjust their ability scores, as noted in their description.
Format: change shape (wolf, beast form I); Location: SQ, and in special abilities for creatures with a unique listing.
As an example from the weretiger entry:
SQ change shape (human, hybrid, and tiger; polymorph),
Kitsune entry:
Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores.
Alter Self:
School transmutation (polymorph)
Polymorph: A polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature's type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.
So definitely no. You can only be under one polymorph effect at a time. So you can have the effect of one or the other, but they cannot be combined in any way.
So definitely no. You can only be under one polymorph effect at a time. So you can have the effect of one or the other, but they cannot be combined in any way.
So when do you consider a kitsune to be under a polymorph condition? Whats there natural form?
If they are currently in their altered form, then it appears to me that they can decide to under go that first change or not.
So definitely no. You can only be under one polymorph effect at a time. So you can have the effect of one or the other, but they cannot be combined in any way.So when do you consider a kitsune to be under a polymorph condition? Whats there natural form?
If they are currently in their altered form, then it appears to me that they can decide to under go that first change or not.
The kistune rules text clearly states that their human form is the 'polymorphed' version.
"Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores."
So the non-human form is the base version and you cannot assume the human form without replacing if you have another polymorphed form (such as lycanthropy, in this case).
So definitely no. You can only be under one polymorph effect at a time. So you can have the effect of one or the other, but they cannot be combined in any way.So when do you consider a kitsune to be under a polymorph condition? Whats there natural form?
If they are currently in their altered form, then it appears to me that they can decide to under go that first change or not.
The kistune rules text clearly states that their human form is the 'polymorphed' version.
"Change Shape (Su): A kitsune can assume the appearance of a specific single human form of the same sex. The kitsune always takes this specific form when she uses this ability. A kitsune in human form cannot use her bite attack, but gains a +10 racial bonus on Disguise checks made to appear human. Changing shape is a standard action. This ability otherwise functions as alter self, except that the kitsune does not adjust her ability scores."
So the non-human form is the base version and you cannot assume the human form without replacing if you have another polymorphed form (such as lycanthropy, in this case).
So if they are already in human form, then the curse of lycanthropy doesn't control them, they control the curse.
Is the night of the first full moon they gain the template, or is it gained when they are first bitten?
The template is applied on the night of the first full moon since they were cursed.
The kitsune is equally cursed and not in control of the curse: if he's already in human form when the full moon appears (or later, whenever he is hurted), the new polymorph spell -becoming a werewolf- becomes dominant.
It says "If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell": if you don't want the lycanthropic transformation to happen, you can choose to try to avoid it. There's a CON check for that (good luck on a full moon).
Also, the first night the afflicted guy is "locked" in his animal shape, so there's nothing he can do to change that, I think. He could be changed by external forces, though.
If they're already in human form, and they're an afflicted lycanthrope and were talking about the night after they were inflicted when they involuntarily assume animal form then I would say it still happens because the curse removes your ability to choose. The curse in this case is more specific then the general polymorph rules which say you get to choose.
Otherwise, excluding the involuntary episode(s), the kitsune lycantrhope can be in either it's natural/base form, it's human polymorph form, it's hyprid polymorph form, or it's animal polymoprh form. It cannot combine them in any way. And while the lycanthrope entry mentions human form specifically, that is because the base creatures are humans. They should have called it base/natural form instead, but it is a minor oversight and the intention is clear.
For a non-natural lycanthrope, the were-forms are the ones that have a different personality and alignment (and agenda). Would another polymorph effect return the base creature's control and hence it would be something the werebeast would never willingly do?
Also, that means werecreatures are immune to polymorph effects as long as they don't want to be affected by them.
For a non-natural lycanthrope, the were-forms are the ones that have a different personality and alignment (and agenda). Would another polymorph effect return the base creature's control and hence it would be something the werebeast would never willingly do?
Also, that means werecreatures are immune to polymorph effects as long as they don't want to be affected by them.
For an afflicted lycanthrope the were-forms definitely behave in opposition to what the character/player would normally want. Another polymoprh affect would give the character a chance to change form and surpress the other personality (as it were) however I believe that the other personality would choose not to change and preserve their control over the body. Otherwise yes, I think that if the hybrid/animal form personality choose to change forms then control would revert to the normal character's personality. However, it would have to be a really contrived situation to force the other personality to want to give control back to the normal personality. I can't think of one of the top of my head, but it would not and should not be a common situation or easy to create.
It does mean that transformed were-creatures (usually natural lycanthropes) are effectively immune to all polymorph effects if they choose to be (by running around in their hybrid or animal forms). A naturla lycanthrope in it's human form isn't under a polymorph affect I believe, and could be changed. However, if the change left them with any control over themself they could change back. So they could still be hit with baleful polymorph while in human form. And, if they fail the Will save to preserve their abilities and so forth they cannot change back. If they succeed in the will save then they keep their abilities and could change into their hybrid or animal form on their next turn.
If they're already in human form, and they're an afflicted lycanthrope and were talking about the night after they were inflicted when they involuntarily assume animal form then I would say it still happens because the curse removes your ability to choose. The curse in this case is more specific then the general polymorph rules which say you get to choose.
Otherwise, excluding the involuntary episode(s), the kitsune lycantrhope can be in either it's natural/base form, it's human polymorph form, it's hyprid polymorph form, or it's animal polymoprh form. It cannot combine them in any way. And while the lycanthrope entry mentions human form specifically, that is because the base creatures are humans. They should have called it base/natural form instead, but it is a minor oversight and the intention is clear.
I have to disagree.
No where does it say in the curse description that it overides other polymorph effects. If it did, then That would be a case of specific trumping general.
If a creature is currently affected by a polymorph effect, then they can ignore new polymorph effects unless it specifically says otherwise.
I have to disagree.
No where does it say in the curse description that it overides other polymorph effects. If it did, then That would be a case of specific trumping general.
If a creature is currently affected by a polymorph effect, then they can ignore new polymorph effects unless it specifically says otherwise.
Generally yes, I agree but to me the clear spirit of the curse is that you lose control and fly into this other animal personality. If you convince your GM that you shouldn't lose control because you're in your polymorphed human form so be it. But I think it's against the spirit of the rules.
Also, no where in any of the rules does it ever say which rule is more specific than other. It's up to us to decide. As lycanthropy is a specific kind of polymorph affect I would generally conclude that it is more specific than the general polymorph rules in the magic section.
Further please keep in mind that the lycanthropy rules were writen in the Core Rule Book, before there was a race that had the ability to be in a polymorph affect all of the time. It just wasn't written with that specific interaction ever in mind to need to specify that the curse would still...ya know....be a curse like it's supposed to.
I have to disagree.
No where does it say in the curse description that it overides other polymorph effects. If it did, then That would be a case of specific trumping general.
If a creature is currently affected by a polymorph effect, then they can ignore new polymorph effects unless it specifically says otherwise.
Generally yes, I agree but to me the clear spirit of the curse is that you lose control and fly into this other animal personality. If you convince your GM that you shouldn't lose control because you're in your polymorphed human form so be it. But I think it's against the spirit of the rules.
Also, no where in any of the rules does it ever say which rule is more specific than other. It's up to us to decide. As lycanthropy is a specific kind of polymorph affect I would generally conclude that it is more specific than the general polymorph rules in the magic section.
Further please keep in mind that the lycanthropy rules were writen in the Core Rule Book, before there was a race that had the ability to be in a polymorph affect all of the time. It just wasn't written with that specific interaction ever in mind to need to specify that the curse would still...ya know....be a curse like it's supposed to.
True about the race not being in a polymorph effect, but is widely accepted that a druid can remain in polymorph form 24 hours a day.
From my own perspective a druid or natural shapeshifter has a greater insight and understanding of the transformations of its body. With that in mind I would say they can decide to allow the change or not if they are currently under the effects of a polymorph ability.