So...yea...party starting throwing some wonky curveballs and I don't know what to do about. After finishing the Skinsaw murders...my resident alchemist and wizard decided it would be a good idea to animate Xanesha. Looking at the rules...I couldn't believe what I was reading...and neither could they.
As a now eighth level character they both can run around with 32 HD of undead? An animated zombie Xanesha is apparently a 14 HD creature for goodness sakes! What am I missing? I am a singular game session away from these two running around with giant ogre zombies as minions! 64HD of giant undead? Gimme a break...they'll just sick them on every combat and sit back and have a picnic. There has to be something I'm missing out on here.
Putting pressure about "evil acts" isn't working. They have a ranger in the party who has a favorite enemy of undead...but he's not willing to rock the boat because he figures, and rightly so, that roleplaying it the way it should be done would wind up dissolving the game. They're already talking about how they're just going to chain up their zombies outside of town so nobody sees them to avoid being routed out of Sandpoint and Turtleback Ferry. This just seems like an egregious wrecking of rules to me. I don't understand how a singular level 8 character can walk around with a coterie of that is essentially a CR 10 encounter?
You control the game. You have a right as a GM to nix anything that is a game breaker, whether or not the "rules" allow this action. I would tell them their animation failed to work, ending up with just a corpse, not an uber powerful game-breaking undead minion. Alternatively, you can halve the HD of any zombie they manage to create. I know, I am a mean GM. :)
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Where were they when they started walking around with a 25-foot-long zombie snake-woman? Magnimar? How'd they get their zombie-Xanesha out of town? Did they hire a boat in Underbridge... and pay an exorbitant fee to the Sczarni captain?
Because if they just tried to walk out of town with an undead lamia matriarch in tow, they'd get a WHOLE LOT of unwanted attention! You can be sure that the paladins at the Temple of Iomedae, plus any Hellknights of the Order of the Nail that were in town, plus the Magnimar guard under the command of General Odinburge would all drop their differences, band together, and try to put down a party of necromancers and their undead monsters!
Magnimar may be neutral, but open practice of necromancy sure wouldn't be legal!
And if they brought these monstrosities to Sandpoint? I think the town would likewise turn on their erstwhile heroes!
Just because the rules allow it doesn't mean that it's a good idea. Frankly, the undead creation rules are there more for the GM to run bad guys. Creating undead is an Evil act with a capital "E." They're going to make a LOT of good-aligned enemies if they start wandering around with a retinue of undead monsters. Honestly, if they're not there already, I'd give them all a voluntary alignment change to evil.
If, somehow, they managed to get away with this, I'm sure a band of inquisitors of Pharasma would be hunting them down.
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Okay, first of all, what ability will they be using? Animate dead requires a material component of a gem worth 25gp per hit die. Right here you have your first roadblock- It's not one gem per hit die, it's a gem worth 25gp per hit die. 12HD would then be a gem worth 300gp. Such a piece may simply not exist, and even if it does, it might be a quest in itself to retrieve.
This of course assumes your group knows how many HD a lamia matriarch HAS in the first place, which would require at the very least a few days of research and a decent knowledge check.
You can't create more than double your caster level with this spell. That's not really a problem here, but it does mean there is a limit to your power.
Now, I don't actually have necromancy banned in my games. If you can raise it and command it, it's fine. Of course, many towns have laws about defiling the dead, so humanoids are out. Zombie dogs, goblins, whatever, fine. Giant snake women will draw some attention, but not the lawmakers. Certainly the paladins, though.
So here's how it works: Xanesha has 12 racial HD and is large size. As a zombie, this is 12+2=14HD. You need a minimum caster level of 8 to raise this creature. As a skeleton, this is only 12HD and you need to be 7th level. You need a single Onyx gemstone worth 350 for a zombie or 300 for a skeleton, and need to both know how large a gemstone you need in the first place (DC 25-35 knowledge check). For all of this work, you receive one, CR6 ally, that is a major hinderance in any fight against a necromancer or evil cleric, and who you might get attacked on sight for having along.
This isn't broken. This is the game.
You also have a perfect opportunity to have a new set of enemies engage the PCs. Plus, they'll have a hell of a time when they finally meet the Grauls... Especially Mammy.
Let me know if you have any questions about this and feel free to PM me.
They got Xanesha out via an invisibility sphere in the middle of the night...so yea...technically nobody saw them walking around with a giant snake woman...and as stated...they claim they'll be leaving them chained outside of towns etc.
As to the gem...they aren't using them. The guy who made her is an alchemist..he doesn't need a gem, he just needs alchemical components (more expensive overall...but not the same as attempting to find expensive gem work).
Why is it only a CR6 ally? A matriarch is a CR8 creature and the zombie template doesn't seem to decrease this. Honestly it seems like the best bet...is to constantly kill the damn things and try to get them to realize they're wasting a ton of money for things that aren't worth it.
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I would actually say that it might be easier to get them to understand, "Great! You found a ruleset that allows you to break the game. We can't do that anymore. Your fun can't trump anyone else's fun - including the ranger, and mine as the GM."
It's a collaborative game. If they don't get that, which they may not. Then, I would go to rule 0. "Xanesha is imbued with power of her Runelord master, and she turns on you. Karzoug turns your ogre zombies into necrotic bombs which literally blow up in your face. Save for half." Bottom line, as was mentioned above - while I don't think it's solely the GM's game to do whatever the heck they want, s/he is definitely the arbiter and charged with ensuring fun for everyone at the table.
Alternatively, I may be misinterpreting your issue: you may be fine with them doing this as long as you can do it back to them in turn. In which case, I would rewrite Mammy Graul as a Gravewalker witch, and she can take over the undead they create if they're within her aura of desecration. They send in the lamia, only to have it coming out and attacking them in kind. At least that might ruin their picnic. Or all of a sudden people have undeath to death scrolls on them. "Great tactic, you got them to spend a round not smacking you. Who's next?"
Well; a Zombie loses essentially all of the special qualities that make a monster challenging, and give it the Staggered quality.
Overall this reduces most of a monster's usefulness.
Anyway, for dealing with this situation, I'd advise throwing a necromancer their way to screw up their allies; even if they have to use a Scroll of Undeath to Death to auto kill those allies. It'll come across as really heavy handed, but it'll end it.
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I would just encourage the ranger (away from the other players) to sneak out of town at night and kill the things while they're tied up. Zombies don't have free will, so if they don't command them to attack the ranger he can just walk up and put down anything they make.
Alternatively, they could be attacked by any number of creatures outside of town, or as others have stated, "wandering necromancer" them. Oh, what's this? An undead horde with no master? Awesome!
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I will echo those who say, "Let them do it, and let them understand the consequences of doing it."
- How are they going to travel with that horde? They can't use the roads because they'll be reported to the authorities by their fellow travelers. They can't use Teleport because there are just too many darned undead. And zombies aren't exactly "masters of overland travel". Double (or more) the time to get anywhere, as zombies can't exactly use horses or boats, and aren't the speediest creatures on the planet. And that means double the number of random encounters, with a lot of those encounters being well-meaning Neutral or even Good groups trying to do away with the undead army that's marching on Turtleback Ferry.
- With a host of wizards watching their every move, you can bet they're going to have Command Undead and Undeath to Death prepared in spades.
- Every town has a chance of detecting their undead army, and discovery will cause "issues".
- As people have noted, going forward in the AP I would be delighted as a GM if a group did this, because it would absolutely wreck many of their chances at Diplomacy with powerful NPCs, and at the same time open them up to be double-crossed by their own undead as soon as they encounter an enemy wizard. Fun!
To give you an example of how bad this can be, the rules for Runequest are explicit: Any race with 3d6 Intelligence or higher is "playable". So one player wanted to play a griffon. I told her outright: "You can certainly play a griffon, but every NPC is going to react to you as a griffon."
She said, "Oh, that's fine! I can do that!"
The very first thing her griffon did was to land in the middle of a rural town square. A dozen crossbow bolts from the town guard later, the griffon was dead, and the player chose to roll up a more "traditional" race.
It's all about playing the NPC reactions appropriately...
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Since when did we start playing a video game? Where any party of any composition can be assembled?
I can be a crotchety old dinosaur but for a character who a) has been part of a long term group (played through first two books of AP) and b) is a companion of a ranger who has undead as a favored enemy (has dedicated his life to destroying undead!!!) to start ginnin' up some undead "because it's cool" is grotesque. It's like taking a dump in the ranger's bedroll and kicking him in the stones when he complains. And it's even worse player behavior. The whole idea of forcing the ranger player into ignoring his own character's background is simply wrong. It's like saying "I know we have a paladin in the group but being an assassin is cool. I'm going to change to evil, take a level in assassin and start poisoning everything that moves" and expecting the paladin to just "play along." Unmitigated BS. I assume the group benefited from the ranger's prowess against undead in the Skinsaw chapter but "Hey, F--- him."
The other responders have posted a lot of practical ideas that would make this approach problematic (at best.) I suggest you use them ALL. One question you need to answer is: what kind of game are you running? Is Golarion one big playground for the players where the whole point is to find interesting intersections of the rules and ever more twisted and new combats with new powers and new monsters? Or are you trying to tell an "authentic story" where the world and NPC's react based on consistent and predictable priorities and values? There's definitely a spectrum and no one is all one way or the other but the closer you are to the "authentic" end, the more insane this idea is. Example questions for your players: do they think they are the first to ever think of this idea? They are the only 8th level characters in Varisia? Why don't other alchemists and wizards have their own retinue of undead minions? Have they encountered any others who do? Oh yeah, they have - an evil necromancer who hides in the basement of a sanitarium run by a crackpot. Why doesn't anyone else do this? Because it's perverse and evil.
One other practical reminder you could give your players: raising undead is evil. Controlling undead is evil. If they encounter any paladins or clerics etc. all of their smites and other "vs evil" spells will work on the pc's, including those who are companions of those doing the controlling. You can't claim innocence if you are openly travelling with undead.
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Oh, good grief!
When Latrecis and I are agreeing, you KNOW someone had a bad idea!
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Ah, the Alchemical Zombie discovery. That explains the how. Still, I think they're overestimating how useful this zombie snake woman will actually be. Let's run through the numbers really quickly.
Her alignment goes from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Evil - nothing huge there. Her type changes from monstrous humanoid to undead. Since she's a Large creature, she gains a +3 bonus to her natural armor, increasing it to +11. She also gains a +2 bonus to her Hit Dice due to her Large size, bringing that up to 14 Hit Dice. However, the zombie template changes her Hit Die from a d10 to a d8, so she's actually going to lose some hit points there. Her saves drop dramatically - they're now Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +9. She loses her defensive qualities (most notably SR), and gains DR 5/slashing, one of the weakest in the game. Speed is unchanged, but there are issues with that which we'll get to. Unless they outfit her with a weapon, she'll only have a single slam attack - we'll calculate that in a moment. She loses all of her special qualities - Wisdom drain, spell-like abilities, sneak attack, spells, everything. Once that gutting is finished, we adjust her stats - her Str increases to 22, her Dex decreases to 21, she has no Con or Int, and her Wis and Cha drop to 10 each. BAB is 3/4 HD, so that comes to +10. Finally, she loses all of her feats and skills, but gains Toughness as a consolation prize.
So, what does that end up with? AC is now 25 (+5 Dex, +11 natural, -1 size) - astonishingly, exactly the same as if she were still wearing her snakeskin tunic. Her attack goes way down, though - she now only attacks once at +16 for 1d8+9. HP is now 77 (14d8+14) - almost half of what she had in life. Finally, her CR drops due to the template rules - since her new Hit Dice total is 14, she's considered a CR 6.
If my players decided they wanted to go through with this terrible plan - and make no bones about it, it really is terrible - I'd let them. After all, they're the ones that have to now always worry about people finding out they've got a rotting snake woman's body lumbering around. Here's a thought - whatever happened to Caizarlu in your game? If the PCs didn't find him beneath Habe's Sanatorium, he could "accidentally" run across their little pet and steal it. In the end, go ahead and give them the rope - they'll hang themselves.
Ah, Misroi lovable advices on how to ruin player's lifes (L). IMHO, I would let them. I do not know your players, but in my case, forbiding it would only cause frustration -even resentment-, mainly because I think they believe it's a lot better idea than it really is.
'They will tie them outside the town' Sure, because nobody will notice that, right? Are you seriously telling me that Shalelu won't eventually find out about this? What are they doing when they arrive to Turtleback Ferry? Won't their enemies get intel on this conspicuous undead army and be ready for them? I see a lot of plot holes ahead when they try to get along with this.
I agree with Latrecis: use it ALL. Have fun with it -OK, I agree, in a kind of sadistic way, but it can be really fun. And a little advice I learned recently (you can check my post asking desperatly for help): be a little ruthless. Do not forgive their mistakes, do not go easy on the ranger, hit back with everything you have. And then, you'll realise they didn't break the game, since you have a lot more of resources available than them.
Misroi has provided an excellent look at the numbers and the special abilities your zombie snake now possesses.
Another important point to remember is that your zombies can only be healed by Inflict spells, not cures, so the PC cleric or potions are of pretty limited value. A few good smashes from a strong melee opponent like an ogre will take this thing to bits, with limited potential for the PCs to heal it (unless they want to invest in Inflict scrolls or wands, which cost more money again). And if an ogre crushes it and they animate the ogre - more money again!
In exchange for an investment of gold, the massive inconvenience of taking these zombies around, the potential lost allies, the PCs receive... a mindless bag of hit points with some good AC and very limited ability to deal back damage. It's useful, but not significantly more than, say, a few Summon Monster spells.
i had a player once that liked to animate dead and drag em with rather then use summon spells (of which he had many) so i just said one thing the last time he did his Shtick, i said "well, looks like someone has a type they're into" he never did it again:)
Heaven forbid! The players are using rules and powers available to them in official paizo material to do exactly what it's meant for! Oh no!
Now, I agree this should have ramifications, but it's not game-breaking or munchkiny enough to deserve punishing the players. If they don't care about alignment, that's their choice and you can have some tension with Good guys, but outright pulling a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" DM fiat seems excessive.
I have a PC in RotRL, started off as your everyday wizard running around doing magicy stuff, opposed schools were Necromancy and Divination (out of respect for the DM who thinks Divination could allow too many "work-around scenarios".) As the adventure continued, I found a spellbook with necromancy stuff in it, and took the Opposed Research grand discovery. As the adventure continued, my wizard became more world-weary but egotistical as wizards tend to do when they learn they can turn off gravity. A powerful ally died and there happened to be some onyx nearby. Reflecting his changed perspective on things, and the grim reality that we are literally trying to save the world, I brought him back. He's powerful, and a great boon to the party, but with this power comes great responsibility.
We worked with the DM to come up with solutions to the problems like travelling and storage, and it added to the game and group dynamic. Take this opportunity to explore morality, character development, etc... Sure, they have a new beatstick but it opens up storytelling potential and if the player's are ok with having an undead in the party, let them. If the party has a problem with it, let them figure out how to solve it in a constructive manner.
Heaven forbid! The players are using rules and powers available to them in official paizo material to do exactly what it's meant for! Oh no!
Now, I agree this should have ramifications, but it's not game-breaking or munchkiny enough to deserve punishing the players. If they don't care about alignment, that's their choice and you can have some tension with Good guys, but outright pulling a "Rocks fall, everyone dies" DM fiat seems excessive.
I have a PC in RotRL, started off as your everyday wizard running around doing magicy stuff, opposed schools were Necromancy and Divination (out of respect for the DM who thinks Divination could allow too many "work-around scenarios".) As the adventure continued, I found a spellbook with necromancy stuff in it, and took the Opposed Research grand discovery. As the adventure continued, my wizard became more world-weary but egotistical as wizards tend to do when they learn they can turn off gravity. A powerful ally died and there happened to be some onyx nearby. Reflecting his changed perspective on things, and the grim reality that we are literally trying to save the world, I brought him back. He's powerful, and a great boon to the party, but with this power comes great responsibility.
We worked with the DM to come up with solutions to the problems like travelling and storage, and it added to the game and group dynamic. Take this opportunity to explore morality, character development, etc... Sure, they have a new beatstick but it opens up storytelling potential and if the player's are ok with having an undead in the party, let them. If the party has a problem with it, let them figure out how to solve it in a constructive manner.
Well... If you're going to respond like an adult with a healthy, balanced perspective, we're not going to let you play in our reindeer games. :)
There's a lot of wisdom in your response but there are a couple tricky parts:
Yep, animating undead has a defined ruleset/process in the game. So does binding a Pit Fiend and walking around with it on a leash. The challenge for many DM's (including how I interpreted the OP's issue) is how do they manifest the consequences of those actions in their worlds.
The story of a group of heroes becoming ever more desperate and morally lost as they fight off the awful in RotRL sounds interesting perhaps even awesome. And as always, if everyone is having fun, who cares what a bunch of stick-in-the-mud, internet fuddy-duddies have to say? But it doesn't sound like that's what's happening in the OP's game. At a minimum all the players do not appear to be on the same page in that one player felt uncomfortable or unable to challenge behavior his character would find completely abhorrent.
And vultures. Don't forget the flock of vultures following all this tasty carrion about.
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Why is it only a CR6 ally? A matriarch is a CR8 creature and the zombie template doesn't seem to decrease this.
Since this is quickly becoming a threadnaught, I will summarize instead of reading everything, so I apologize if this was explained above:
Xanesha is a Lamia Matriarch with one rogue level. This gives her 13 racial HD and one class HD. She is also large-sized.The Zombie Template: Change type to undead. Natural armor based on size, large +3. Drop class HD and change racial HD to d8s. Change saves to be Fort +1/3 HD, Ref +1/3 HD, and Will +1/2 HD + 2. Lose all defensive abilities and gain DR5/Slashing. Winged Zombies can fly at clumsy. Other movements retained. Retain all natural weapons and gain slam attack. Lose all special attacks. +2 str, -2 dex. No con or int scores. Wis and Cha become 10. BAB= 3/4 HD. Lose all skill ranks. Lose all feats and gain toughness. Keep (Ex) abilities that augment attacks. Gain Staggered.
This produces:
Lamia Matriarch Zombie, CR 6
NE Large Undead
Init +6; Senses: DV60'
DEFENSE
AC 25 / 15 / 19 (+6 dex, +10 natural, -1 size)
hp 83 (15d8+15)
Saves: 5 / 11 / 9
Undead Immunities
DR 5/ Slashing
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., climb 40 ft., swim 40 ft.
Melee Slam +16 (1d6+6)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft
STATISTICS
Str 22, Dex 23, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +11; CMB +18; CMD 34 (can’t be tripped)
Feats: Toughness
Skills: None.
SQ: Staggered, Undersized Weapons
Weapon and Armor proficiency: Simple weapons and scimitar.
You will notice that 83 hp is really not that much, especially considering it does not heal naturally. Also, the 1d6+6 is kind of just adorable. It loses wisdom drain, since that is (Su) ability. It loses ALL the spells, spell-like abilities, everything. The only redeeming quality is the speed, which gets slashed due to staggered quality.
Let me re-iterate that this use of a spell is well within the rules and you should, in my opinion, in no way punish its use. Your players paid for this ability. They have a large chunk of undead HD in this, and it's a decent ally. It is not, by any stretch, a broken ally.
Hey, isn't this the first step in generating carrionstorms?
Yes, it is indeed. Oh, Misroi... xD
So what happened?
Haven't played again yet, game was cancelled last week due to people being gone for the 4th. We'll play again on Thursday.
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I checked some templated creatures before (example is zombie storm giant) and they seem to lose their natural armor from beast type and gain fixed natural armor from zombie template. A large zombie has only 3 natural armor, so lamia would have AC of 18 probably. It seems a bit illogical, but that's probably how it works.
Zombies have crappy AC.
Malag
Perhaps it depends on how old the zombie is. A fresh one has the AC it was born with, but as it ages the skin goes flaky and rotten, leaving it with just the intrinsic necromantic zombie AC. But in any case, you can put armour on it (though finding something to fit Xanesha might be tricky).