I'm a relatively new DM, and started in quite an odd way. I started off watching RollPlay made by itmeJP on YouTube, and quickly after started watching Neil Erickson, who does D&D 2E. So, naturally, I wanted to play, but due to lack of other DMs and lack of interest in others DMing at the time, I took it up my self, using an odd Hybrid of 2e, 3.5e and pathfinder.
Now that I know what i'm doing a lot more (and still barely know what i'm doing, it's funny how DMing works), and can focus on single styles IE: Pathfinder, I have some very annoying problems.
For 1: How do I pad stuff out, even if ever so slightly? I mean... if a player gets a mysterious magical item, what is there stopping him/her from just finding a mage and paying them a lump sum of gold to identify what that object does? This applies to many things, not just magical items. Whenever I DM it seems like the players aren't too interested in going into super amounts of details on things, aren't interested in crafting or exploring towns (or anywhere, for that matter) and only seem to enjoy finding jobs for people to give them. Obviously, with the lack of exploration, deep and extended conversation, crafting, shopping and so on, the sessions start to turn into a waiting game for the next encounter, how do I stop this?
I have more questions, but i'd like to see responses on these things first.
Also, i'm very interested in speaking with experience DMs, either via forum, PM, Skype or something similar.
That's a style problem. Your players are looking for fun combat and you're looking for deep immersion storytelling. Would I be correct in guessing that your players mainly have played MMORPGs or computer RPGs? That's a fairly common cause for this kind of disconnect.
There are lots of ways of dealing with the problem, with probably the most popular suggestion being to reward behaviour you'd like to encourage (like discounts on the cost of identification if the PCs take the time to get to know the wizard).
At the end of the day, the best solution is going to be to get all of your group on the same page regarding the level of character interaction and action - and this might require you to modify your expectations.
*reposted from the other thread*
Hi MinisculeMax, and welcome to the DM chair.
Let's dive right into your first question.
Personally I rarely find that it helps to pad the game out, unless it is of great importance to the entire narrative of the story that something be dealt with in a certain amount of time. Otherwise padding risks feeling like... well... padding.
If a player gets a magic item, is this magic item any more mysterious than his +1 Bastard sword? If so, why? Is it of higher caster level? is it unique? what is the narrative reason why the party should not be able to just hire someone, trained in the arcane, to identify the properties of this item?
I'd also advice that if your players are presently more focussed on getting out in the world and doing stuff, and not so much interested in exploring towns and going into great detail on minor things, then I would use more effort polishing the part where they seem to enjoy themselves the most. Make sure the jobs are entertaining, challenging and memorable.
I've been new to DM'ing, every DM has. We want to make the world and the storytelling perfect, for our players, but also for ourselves, so we feel like we didn't miss out on possibilities. But taking it easy and playing to your players' preferences is helpful in the beginning. I believe your players will come to appreciate the little details, the subtleties of downtime and exploring towns and places of interest, in their own time.
Lastly, how do you make the game stop feeling like they're just waiting for the next encounter. I'd say provide them with challenges that are not combat-specific. Terrain challenges and social challenges are a thing, they are just as important as combat challenges. So let them work their social-skill muscles next time they want a job, make it a challenge. Then when they're on their way to the place of interest for their quest, have them encounter trouble in the terrain, travelling is dangerous, and unprepared travellers, who didn't bring a detailed area-map or have ranks in knowledge Geography, will not know about the hidden path of Ang-Karyas, that leads safely through an area. They'll instead have to scale dangerous surfaces, wade through treacherous mires (unless they're willing to spend days walking around it, in which case you should let them. "Best block, no be there") etc etc.
I don't know if you find my suggestions helpful. Hopefully you do.
Let me also give you THIS. Maybe you'll find it useful.
Don't hesitate to ask more questions as needed, and once again: welcome to DM'ing :)
-Nearyn
MinisculeMax has let me know that he is unable to post in this thread for a reason. Until such a time that he learns what is wrong he asked me to post the following response to Chemlak.
Chemlak wrote:That's a style problem. Your players are looking for fun combat and you're looking for deep immersion storytelling. Would I be correct in guessing that your players mainly have played MMORPGs or computer RPGs? That's a fairly common cause for this kind of disconnect.
There are lots of ways of dealing with the problem, with probably the most popular suggestion being to reward behaviour you'd like to encourage (like discounts on the cost of identification if the PCs take the time to get to know the wizard).
At the end of the day, the best solution is going to be to get all of your group on the same page regarding the level of character interaction and action - and this might require you to modify your expectations.
I suppose it would be of more help if I mentioned I mostly do 1 ON 1 sessions? Occasionally a group, once in a while, but yes, my group has played massive amounts of MMOs and RPGs, I suppose that's where they get it from.
Encouraging behaviour with discounts and such doesn't seem to matter to them at all.
I have no earthly clue if posting on his behalf, on his request is frowned upon, but there it is.
-Nearyn
What an odd problem (the being unable to post thing).
Anyway, it doesn't bother me at all that the message has been passed along, as long as I get it.
Let me see...
There are four things you can do, broadly speaking:
1) Encourage positive behaviour.
2) Discourage negative behaviour.
3) Change everyone's expectations.
4) Leave things as they are.
From the sound of it, 4 is a bad choice, since it will only frustrate you as a GM, and your fun is just as important as that of others at the table.
3 is probably the hardest to do, since it involves compromise, and it surprisingly hard to make people meet you halfway, both for them and you.
2 is risky, since it's really easy to become passive-aggressive with "well, if you'd talked to the people in town, you'd have known what to expect, and could have done X, Y, or Z."
Which is why I strongly favour 1.
There's an oft-forgotten rule regarding XP that says that for "pure roleplaying" encounters (ie ones where the dice don't get thrown), the party earns XP for a CR = APL encounter. It's one of my favourite rules to encourage actual roleplaying over rolling dice, because a level 10 party can earn CR 10 XP from talking to a level 1 commoner. To prevent it going overboard, you have to remember that not every conversation is an encounter (an encounter should always be a challenge to be overcome), but it can be a very useful rule to bear in mind.
Anyway, I need to go out, so more later!
*reposted from the other thread*
Hi MinisculeMax, and welcome to the DM chair.
Let's dive right into your first question.
Personally I rarely find that it helps to pad the game out, unless it is of great importance to the entire narrative of the story that something be dealt with in a certain amount of time. Otherwise padding risks feeling like... well... padding.
If a player gets a magic item, is this magic item any more mysterious than his +1 Bastard sword? If so, why? Is it of higher caster level? is it unique? what is the narrative reason why the party should not be able to just hire someone, trained in the arcane, to identify the properties of this item?
I'd also advice that if your players are presently more focussed on getting out in the world and doing stuff, and not so much interested in exploring towns and going into great detail on minor things, then I would use more effort polishing the part where they seem to enjoy themselves the most. Make sure the jobs are entertaining, challenging and memorable.
I've been new to DM'ing, every DM has. We want to make the world and the storytelling perfect, for our players, but also for ourselves, so we feel like we didn't miss out on possibilities. But taking it easy and playing to your players' preferences is helpful in the beginning. I believe your players will come to appreciate the little details, the subtleties of downtime and exploring towns and places of interest, in their own time.
Lastly, how do you make the game stop feeling like they're just waiting for the next encounter. I'd say provide them with challenges that are not combat-specific. Terrain challenges and social challenges are a thing, they are just as important as combat challenges. So let them work their social-skill muscles next time they want a job, make it a challenge. Then when they're on their way to the place of interest for their quest, have them encounter trouble in the terrain, travelling is dangerous, and unprepared travelers, who didn't bring a detailed...
EDIT: IT ACTUALLY WORKS NOW! Praise the gods of technology.
The reason why I wouldn't like the party to know exactly what a magic item is, is because the item is magic! Where's the mystery if they can just hire any mage to identify it for them for a miniscule price?
as for padding, not exactly padding.. more so finding something to get the party involved in, instead of having them essentially trying to use the "rest" feature in fallout or Skyrim, as an example.
As for your final section of response, there IS a problem with that... because of my situation, I can only use the Roll 20 website, and have never been able to properly view the use of terrain and such, so I don't fully know how to do it my self, and there are no physical things for me to do. Sure, I could throw them into some mountains and have some cave ins and such, but with these things it always seems like they find some sort of small detail that just allows them to get out of it within 2 seconds.
Praise the Omnisiah!
As for the magic item maintaining a level of mystery, I'd say it all depends on what type of game you're running. Golarion, which is the default setting for the Pathfinder game, and therefore arguably the setting the system fits with the best, is fairly high-fantasy. Conventional magic is mysterious to commoners, but not absurdly rare, and very well understood by those who practice the arcane. This is reflected in skills such as Knowledge(Arcana) and spellcraft. A person trained in spellcraft need only succeed at a fairly low DC check, and spend 3 rounds carefully studying an item to learn how it ticks.
If you want magic to be more mysterious, I guess the main question would be "More mysterious than what?". A person who is completely untrained in a knowledge skill can still roll said knowledge skill, but no matter the dice-roll, can only reach a DC of 10. In other words, most people in your world, who do not have a penalty to int is gonna be able to take 10 on knowledge(arcana) for basic lore about magic. Very basic lore, sure, but still basic lore. In order to know the effects of a magic item a character must manage a roll of 15+item's caster level. This means that if you have a caster in your group, he'll likely be able to identify nearly any and all magic items you come across with a bit of effort. If you want that to change, you have to make sure your players realize you're running a different setting with a different baseline, than the one presented in the core rulebook. I urge you to remember, since you're a professed newcomer, that every time you step away from the rules, you're making a judgement call. The more judgement-calls you make, the more energy you have to devote to mentally juggling this world of your own design. Also the more you move away from the rules, the less your players can rely on their knowledge of the rules to serve as a foundation for what their characters experience. For example: If I'm your player and I roll a wizard, I may expect, from reading the rules, that I'll be able to sit down and study magic items I find, and then determine their effects for my party. If I do this, and you then tell me that I cannot because <reason>, then you've shuffled my understanding of the world, and now I'll have to rely more on you to answer questions, which before could have been answered by looking in the book. You follow? :)
Making your party do something else is a corner-case with every party, so take what I say with a truck of salt, but I'll give you a suggestion. Present your players with mini-games they can play in taverns, with which they may earn small rewards. And when I say rewards, don't just limit it to GP, or vague information about what their character may or may not get. State flat out that since you beat the ranger at darts he respects them a bit more and they get +2 on social interactions with said ranger. That way, when you give them a quest where they have to find some place that is hidden somewhere in the local area, they may think "Hey, we should totally ask the ranger, since he likes us!". Slowly funnelling them in a direction where their interactions with their surroundings can teach players to -want- to interact. Aside from that I can only suggest you not be afraid of presenting obstacles they can't just wait their way around.
Using a virtual tabletop is nice, but the grid is only really needed in combat. You could run terrain without ever needing a grid. And if they work their way around the challenges fast, then more power to them :)
Let's say the party is travelling to the Moonglow, a glade located somewhere in the deep wilds. On their way there the party spots a problem. A steep cliff wall of around 50 ft blocks their path and stretches for an unknown length in either direction. The party can try to go around, but there is no telling if that way is viable. They can try to climb it, but it could be dangerous. However the party attempts to get around this problem, that's them telling their own story, and you'll help them tell this story, by rolling with it and let their characters experience what happens. So instead of saying "you travel east along the cliff, but you cannot find any way up" Tell them that they travel for quite awhile without any luck, describe how the forest changes around them, maybe pull out the wilderness rules and have them see if they get lost.
-Nearyn
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Don't pad stuff out. The campaign should run as long as you have content, and then end. If it moves at a clip, that's no problem. You are not getting paid by the hour.
You should never, ever, ever try and stop something that the players like. See the first rule of the Top 10 Tips for new GMs.