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So, looking through my new copy of Blood of the Elements I stumbled across a fairly interesting ability in the new ifrit cavalier order:
Glorious Challenge: A glorious challenge does not count
against the cavalier’s number of challenges per day, but
otherwise acts like a cavalier’s challenge class feature.
When he issues a glorious challenge, the cavalier takes a
–2 penalty to AC for the duration of the glorious challenge
(this penalty stacks with the usual –2 AC penalty against
opponents other than the target of the cavalier’s challenge).
The cavalier gains a morale bonus on melee damage rolls
against the target of his glorious challenge equal to 2 ×
the number of consecutive glorious challenges he has
issued thus far. As long as he continues to defeat targets
of his glorious challenges and there are more opponents
in range, the cavalier can continue to issue glorious
challenges indefinitely, with the penalty to AC and the
bonus on damage rolls increasing with each subsequent
foe. For example, a 5th-level cavalier that has just issued
his third glorious challenge after defeating the original
target of his challenge takes a –6 penalty to AC (–8 against
creatures other than the target of his glorious challenge)
and gains a +11 bonus on melee damage rolls (a +5 bonus
from his base challenge ability plus a +6 morale bonus for
three consecutive glorious challenges).
So my question becomes, is it possible to take more penalties to your AC than your actual AC score? Is this ability functionally unlimited damage, or does it stop scaling when your AC hits 0?
Side note, I'm pretty sure unlimited challenges with extra bonus damage just moved ifrit cavaliers way up the DPR Olympics charts.
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I see nothing that would prevent one's AC from dropping below 0, as long as you have enough enemies all at once to use that many glorious challenges. It's not quite unlimited, as your next enemy must be in range when you finish off the previous one, so it only chains up for a single encounter.
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I see nothing that would prevent one's AC from dropping below 0, as long as you have enough enemies all at once to use that many glorious challenges. It's not quite unlimited, as your next enemy must be in range when you finish off the previous one, so it only chains up for a single encounter.
The way I read it, there was no /day limit on the ability though; sure his scaling will end at the end of the encounter, but there doesn't appear to be anything stopping him from using it again at the start of the next fight. Compared to Paladins and any other Cavalier order, that seems like a huge jump in damage. If you really cannot afford the hit to AC in a given encounter, you still have your standard challenges to fall back on as well...
It seems a little glass cannon-y, but like, one hell of a cannon.
Wow, no kidding. Throw some miss chance and DR buffs on that guy and watch him go to town on the Quirky Miniboss Squad and their army of mooks.
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I had similar thoughts. Just look to non-AC defenses like concealment, mirror image, DR, etc.
I've had a few PC's where I just left the AC arms race and focused on other types defenses that worked as well or better. Granted they were generally casters, but Ifrit's do have have a CHA boost and the other order abilities really encourage him to not dump it, so UMD or a dip into another class that can provide the defenses isn't really an "out there" idea.
Wow, what a poorly written ability. It either is awful and requires you to chain your targets all in one encounter, then resets to 0 afterwards, OR it stacks all day and between encounters, which is actually kinda nuts. Do challenged targets have to fall into a CR or HD range based on your level? Can you carry around a sack of chipmunks, challenge them, murder them, and have an obscene damage boost? Weird.
Also, Ninja is not a bad dip for non AC defenses. Mirror Image or Vanishing Trick, plus charisma synergies.
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In rereading the ability I caught this bit of text under the Order description "As an immediate action after reducing the target of his challenge to 0 hit points or fewer, the cavalier can elect to issue a
glorious challenge to an opponent within 15 feet."
So the ability is a little bit more limited than I thought and requires you to trigger it off one of your normal challenge uses.
Still fails the "bag of rats" test pretty spectacularly though, and potentially makes a huge difference in daily damage output since you can chain a single challenge through an entire encounters worth of enemies.
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Does it matter? At an AC of 0 somebody with an attack roll of -2 is hitting on a 2. Who cares if AC goes below 0?
It's more that I'm wondering if you can continue to chain this ability even after your AC hits 0, or if that's supposed to be a "cap" to how many times you can chain it.
Just in case an evil Order of the Flame ifrit wants to open up combat by murdering a few dozen kittens he keeps on hand for that purpose.
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Wouldn't you have to have enough animals to make it through the day? Or, I guess you could challenge one and put it back in the bag, then pull it out right before a fight, murder the crap out of it while in sight of a bad guy.
Or, in a more realistic fashion, would taking somebody prisoner turn off your challenge? That's actually kind of cool, thematically. Walk into a fight with a prisoner, kill him, and point to an opponent, declaring him next.
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See, I think they missed a sentence in the ability. What it should probably say in there somewhere is "Glorious Challenge can only be used when you defeat the target of your challenge or glorious challenge."
That way, you issue one challenge (which is limited by uses per day) and then you take out a goblin. You can then issue a glorious challenge against another goblin, adding an additional -2 to your AC as a penalty. Then you kill that one, and can issue another glorious challenge on a third goblin. Once all the goblins are dead, your challenge ends and for the next combat you have to use a daily use of your challenge ability before you can start glorious challenge-ing people again.
As far as AC going lower than 0, that's one that definitely needs to be answered by the devs, but I would think that if you hit 0 AC then you can't use glorious challenge again until your AC goes back up. Then again, if someone then cast some type of +2 Luck bonus to AC on you mid-battle, you'd get another use of glorious challenge, which thematcially doesn't fit.
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See, I think they missed a sentence in the ability. What it should probably say in there somewhere is "Glorious Challenge can only be used when you defeat the target of your challenge or glorious challenge."
They did add that sentence, it just wasn't in the actual ability block but was under the main order heading, so I missed it during the initial read-through. You have to use a challenge first to trigger an immediate action for Glorious Challenge, and then you can keep chaining them together as long as you continue to kill stuff.
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They did add that sentence, it just wasn't in the actual ability block but was under the main order heading, so I missed it during the initial read-through. You have to use a challenge first to trigger an immediate action for Glorious Challenge, and then you can keep chaining them together as long as you continue to kill stuff.See, I think they missed a sentence in the ability. What it should probably say in there somewhere is "Glorious Challenge can only be used when you defeat the target of your challenge or glorious challenge."
Ah! Well then, in that case the only real question we need answered is whether you can reduce your AC below 0. Other than that, this ability works, and I could definitely see it being exploited hardcore. For example, since you're adding a morale bonus that increases every time you issue another glorious challenge, you could also be having a bard cast moment of greatness on you to DOUBLE that morale bonus once every round!
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Even a "not even trying" cavalier can have an AC in the 14-20 range - how often is a situation going to come up where you chain this together for more than 7-10 targets?
Probably not that often, unless you've got a player who decides to take advantage of the fact that this fails the "bag of rats" test in a fairly spectacular way and keeps some angry vermin on hand so he can crush their skulls to keep his Glorious Challenge rolling and keep pumping his damage. Given the fluff tied to the ability I'm really surprised there wasn't a minimum hit die limit on valid targets for his Glorious Challenge or something similar.
I suppose it would simply come down to said player's GM to rule against the "bag of rats" test.
I'm with you in regards to your closing statement. But then, the same thought pops in my cranium where the normal Challenge ability is concerned, as well.
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I haven't read the book yet. Does the order's code allow the cavalier to treat helpless prisoners and animals as foes? Some of the codes wouldn't allow that.
Even if it's okay by the order, I just don't see much efficiency from the "bag of rats" approach for this one. Challenging is a swift action, so only once per round. Glorious challenge is immediate, so still just once per round.
So:
Round 1: Dump rats. Challenge. Kill a rat. Challenge another rat.
Rats scatter in all directions.
Round 2: Chase down challenged rat. Kill it. Challenge another rat? Guess it depends on your move and how far away the rats can get.
Round n: Come down on a real foe like a ton of bricks, except you could have just been doing that on round 1.
Every round you spend killing rats for a cumulative +2 damage you could have just been beating on a real enemy for lots more. Yes you could kill a lot of basically worthless "foes" to rack up big bonuses, but that's the same as "my character only requires 5 rounds of in-combat buff magic then he's unstoppable!" The fight could be over before you're done buffing.