So, there' s a feat that requires cleave called Surprise follow through, which makes it so that if you successfully cleave, the second foe is denied their dex mod to ac. There's also an improved version which effects all foes attacked after the first opponent.
My question is, would it effect the cleaving finish feats? It states that it works when you use a standard action to use cleave or great cleave, so I know that it only activates then, but what if you're great cleaving and when you hit the final guy, you knock him unconcious and it activates your improved cleaving finish? You can start cleaving back the other way, but does surprise follow through stay active?
The improved version of the feat states every enemy but the first loses their dex mod to AC.
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Think I am confused a little: Improved version works on every attack after the first, so yes it would work on each attack after the first. No brainer...
What is this about Cleaving Finish requiring cleave or great cleave?
When you strike down an opponent, you can continue your swing into another target.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack.
Benefit: If you make a melee attack, and your target drops to 0 or fewer hit points as a result of your attack, you can make another melee attack using your highest base attack bonus against another opponent within reach. You can make only one extra attack per round with this feat.
I don't see anything in there requiring you to use ANYTHING (but damage) to knock someone to 0 or fewer hp. And the improved version just lets you keep on killing... nothing says what you need to do to start it (nor that you even have to be the majority of damage done, just get them at / under 0 to keep truckin)
I was asking if it would work in tandem with the great cleave feat and improved cleaving finish. I figured it wouldn't work with just cleaving finish feats because in surprise follow through, it states that it only activates on the standard action of activating cleave or great cleave.
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Cleave starts; SFT can be used. 2nd foe denied Dex. CF can be used to hit one more person IF you knock the second person to 0 or below, cleave and SFT do not really matter much.
Great Cleave starts; SFT or ISFT can be used. 2nd only or all depending on SFT or ISFT used. CF can still be used if the last person is knocked to 0 or below. ICF can still be used, but only against foes you have NOT hit with ICF (but great cleave victims don't count). So, yes, with ICF you could go back through the "other way" and hit them all again if you manage to keep knocking them to 0 or below. But you can't hit them a third time with ICF (you are already hitting them a second time, and since it says "another", you have to pick a different target each use of ICF (just like you did for great cleave)). In theory, none of them would be alive anyway, if you continued to hit with ICF and knock them below 0 HP, right? NO, on all subsequent hits, with ICF, you would not get to use ISFT as well... as it only mentions it works with cleave or great cleave, not ICF. Technically Cleave or Great Cleave was over and you started using CF/ICF
That's what I thought, I just like to come ask here for second opinions. I've played with too many people who try break the system, it sorta just rubbed off on me. Thank you for the help.
Cleave starts; SFT can be used. 2nd foe denied Dex. CF can be used to hit one more person IF you knock the second person to 0 or below, cleave and SFT do not really matter much.
Great Cleave starts; SFT or ISFT can be used. 2nd only or all depending on SFT or ISFT used. CF can still be used if the last person is knocked to 0 or below. ICF can still be used, but only against foes you have NOT hit with ICF (but great cleave victims don't count). So, yes, with ICF you could go back through the "other way" and hit them all again if you manage to keep knocking them to 0 or below. But you can't hit them a third time with ICF (you are already hitting them a second time, and since it says "another", you have to pick a different target each use of ICF (just like you did for great cleave)). In theory, none of them would be alive anyway, if you continued to hit with ICF and knock them below 0 HP, right? NO, on all subsequent hits, with ICF, you would not get to use ISFT as well... as it only mentions it works with cleave or great cleave, not ICF. Technically Cleave or Great Cleave was over and you started using CF/ICF
First of all, if your cleave attack 'downs' either opponent, you can CF (once max), is my understanding. Second, I believe anyone you knock to 0 or below on your turn (cleaving, or not) including your first target of a cleave or great cleave triggers a ICF. Third, why would ISFT not work on all subsequent attacks generated off a cleave (aside from the primary target), including CF or ICF?
Because the ISFT feat says it activates when you use a standard action to activate GC. It might work with ISFT if used in conjuntion with GC and ICF, but not ICF by itself because of it's special activation.
Also, a question from my friend. He wants to know if ICF can be used in conjunction with the Dimensional Savant, because between each teleport, since the enemy is now adjacent to you, and you technically fill all those spaces, as far as being able to give yourself flanking, all those foes could be viewed as adjacent to each other.
Because the ISFT feat says it activates when you use a standard action to activate GC. It might work with ISFT if used in conjuntion with GC and ICF, but not ICF by itself because of it's special activation.
Definitely agree that the starting action for ISFT needs to be a cleave...just wanted to clarify the CF's can be triggered by any attack that 'downs'.
You'll have to clarify your friend's question a bit, as I'm not sure what the question is - ICF works off any attack that 'downs' an opponent. Are you trying to his someone not within reach in some way? Or within reach of a square you used to be in?
With the Dimensional Dervish feat it says you can use Dimension door as part of a full attack action. With Dimensional Savant, you're considered to occupy all squares you teleport to, to the point of giving yourself flanking. Since you occupy all squares you teleport through, and the dimension door spell is described as going through a door.
Now if you down an enemy on your last swing and you still have distance left from dimension door, if ICF activates, can you teleport and treat enemies as being adjacent for the the use of ICF?