I want to pose a hypothetical: Suppose that instead of getting a bonus combat feat every other level the Fighter gained a number of combat feats per fighter level per fighter level, meaning that a fighter would get one bonus feat at first level, two bonus feats at second level, three bonus feats at third level and so on.This would give the fighter 55 bonus combat feats by level 10 and 210 bonus combat feats by level 20.
What I want to know is that if you compare this fighter to other martials and classes at equal level and gear, which class do you think comes out on top?
I know that many people believe that the fighter is fine as is, what I want to know from those people is if a fighter with this feat progression would be too powerful in the current game.
I know that many people believe that the fighter and feats in general is just not a good niche, what I want to know from these people is if enough feats applied in excess can compensate for the diminishing returns of more feats.
I may try to post builds later, but as you can imagine building a fighter with this change is a cumbersome affair.
Without even getting into the balance issues, the mere idea of trying to track 55 combat feats (never mind 210) gives me a headache. Players with spellcasting eventually have to track dozens of spells, sure, but they generally don't have to worry about their spells interacting with other spells to form combination attacks, etc.
The other issue that comes to mind is that there are only so many feats. Looking through the Core Rulebook table, you can buy almost every non-arcane combat feat by level 10 using your proposed system. You might miss out on five or six of them, I think.
To answer your question about feats in excess and diminishing returns, you would certainly be making the Fighter a "master of all trades", but I don't know that doing so would make him inherently more powerful. Meaning, is a 20th-level optimized (e.g.) archer-style Fighter as powerful as a 20th-level optimized Wizard? My guess, based on the debates I've read so far, is "No." So would making that optimized archer ALSO an optimized two-weapon fighter (or sword-and-shield fighter, or two-handed fighter, etc.) bridge that gap? I think the answer to that question is also "No," unless any of those "builds" is equal to the 20th-level optimized Wizard.
You will, however, certainly ensured that a Fighter interested in branching out in different aspects of combat early will be able to address almost any sort of martial situation.
By all means, though, press with this. I'm looking forward to seeing your results.
kyrt-ryder,
I get that there are many more other Combat Feats out there. I stand by my question. :)
Are you ultimately bridging the gap in question, or are you simply giving the Fighter the opportunity to be more versatile? That is, does maxing out any of the Combat Feat trees necessarily make the optimized Fighter a match for the optimized Wizard (or what have you)?
Honestly I feel like the best and easiest approach without having to completely redue the system in its entirety would be to condense down many of the "Greater-Improved" feats into 1 feat. Essentially you take the "greater" feat and gain the benefits of the "improved" feat when you meet the normal BAB pre-req. This would allow martials of all sorts to be able to branch out a little (or take nice feats they normally couldn't due to feat starvation) and make fighters have a real niche (the guy who can fight with equal skill with any weapon or maneuver) or allow the fighter to build as a given build (say TWF) and have even more feats left over to have an "off-spec" or to shore up weakness or provide more character depth (with feats like Skill Focus or things of the sort)
kyrt-ryder,
Fair points. I'll admit to liking K177Y C47's take, above, as well. Meaning, Improved Disarm, Feint, and Trip just seem like a ripoff against the previous feats that the Fighter gets. I'm sure there are many other instances where feats can be consolidated, giving the Fighter a chance to be better and more well-rounded.
I can say that it would guarantee a fair number of currently pointless feats actually see play at the mid-high levels.
That I'll agree with. I also think you can achieve the above with fewer extra bonus fighter feats, too.
I think bonus combat feat gain at the OP's rate is too extreme.
First, it would upset every non-fighter martial at your table, since the fighter is getting far more than it needs to match the power of the "better" martial classes. Any monks or rogues may feel especially feel slighted under that model.
Second, it is literally feat inundation for the fighter's player. As someone mentioned earlier, feats can interact with one another in some strange ways when you have the ability to utilize 7 or 8 feats simultaneously. That can make for some pretty heavy math at the table, or at least alot of work on the player's part away from the table so he can prepare and be ready for game day without slowing combat to a crawl.
Third, people can (and do) already take a 2-level dip in fighter to get 2 fighter bonus feats, which isn't bad. The tiered method you propose would allow any character to take a 3-level dip in fighter for 6 bonus feats, which is so good that almost every martial build would do it.
I also think you can negate the "feat tax" of feat chains by eliminating the Str / Int / Dex prerequisites for alot of the existing combat feats. Additionally, you could give the fighter the next feat in the chain for all combat feats he's spent bonus fighter feats on. The "free feat" would only come at levels that fighters get bonus combat feats (i.e. 2, 4, 6, 8, etc). In other words, if a fighter takes Combat Expertise and Step Up at level 1, at level 2 he would get Following Step for free. If he takes Improved Trip at level 2, then at level 4 he would receive Step Up & Strike for free. If he takes Improved Disarm at level 4, then once he hits level 6 he would get Greater Trip and Greater Disarm both for free (since level 6 is when his BAB is +6, meeting the prereq for the "Greater" feats). Since wall-o'-text is hard to read, it would look like this (normal feats at 3 & 5 not counted for):
level 1 - Combat Expertise (normal feat), Step up (ftr bonus)
level 2 - Following Step (free), Improved Trip (ftr bonus)
level 4 - Step Up & Strike (free), Improved Disarm (ftr bonus)
level 6 - Greater Trip (free), Greater Disarm (free), Regular Ftr Bonus Feat
I hate feat chains, and I would love the above. It means that you could get used to your new combat options on an ongoing basis, as opposed to reaching level 8, getting 8 new feats and needing to immediately learn the mechanics of those 8 new feats and how they interact.