Ok, so I'm looking for opinions and input on adjusting Cleric Towards being more of a spellcaster and less of a combatant, or at least getting something back for giving up the potential for combat in exchange for something in return.
Specifically, the aspects of cleric I'm wanting to lose are-
3/4 bab to 1/2 bab (and the associated d8 to d6 hitdie).
Armor Proficiency
Good Fort Save.
As the above are the aspects I see as the 'combat' traits of the class.
I have seen the Theosophist on d20pfsrd,but my DM is concerned it gets too much for what it loses...
So I'm looking for input on what a fair, and more importantly conservatively balanced exchange for the above Attributes would be.
Thanks.
You want them to be more like Wizards, and the advantage that Wizards have is a better spell list and bonus feats. So I'd give bonus feats similiar to a Wizard, but instead of Item Creation feats, they can select Channel feats. Also, I'd expand the options for domain spells, and allow them to be chosen from any of the deity's domains, instead of just the two chosen for their other powers.
So... Priest? Its pretty much a copypasta of the 3.5 cloistered cleric. Theosophist doesn't look that bad to me either.
Anyways, to make them more casty you might consider giving them more things that actually augment their spells or have to do with their spells, similar to a wizards bonus feats/arcane discoveries, a sorcerer's bloodlines, oracle's revelations, etc. Might also help to give them slightly more power to augment their spell list, especially at lower levels, to give them more offensive/personal defensive power to make up for their lack of offensive spells on their spell lost and lost melee capabilities and defenses, though a little goes a long way with spells to begin with.
I actually like Theosophist myself; I feel that the third domain inherently adds less than the first two (since you still only get one domain slot a spell level) and domain powers are inherently limited by available actions and not by quantity in most cases.
Priest on the other hand gets extra spells per day from the second domain spell, and domain casting out the gate...
Do you think that I could make the case that Theosophist without the good Fort save is almost certainly no more broken than standard cleric?
Maybe the ability to apply metamagic on the fly by expending channels in the same way the warpriest quickens spells with fervor.There was a feat that allowed this in 3.5 called "Divine Metamagic"
An angle I wouldn't pursue with half a ten foot ladder. Divine Metamagic was... Well, it wasn't well loved in my memory.
Maybe the ability to apply metamagic on the fly by expending channels in the same way the warpriest quickens spells with fervor.There was a feat that allowed this in 3.5 called "Divine Metamagic"
Yes, at its worst you could use it to cast metamagic above and beyond what you should have access too. Nightsticks(item that gave channels) and persistent(all day) metamagic in particular were possibly a gamebreaker, because all day divine power is insane. If you do it I'd suggest putting a hard cap on the amount of metamagic you can apply.
Do you think that I could make the case that Theosophist without the good Fort save is almost certainly no more broken than standard cleric?
To be honest, I think it wasn't that bad to begin with. I think it certainly looks more balanced standing next to the wizard with his one save, but good saves more than anything save your life so I don't consider them horrific game breakers unless your really pumping them.
Thanks for all the input thus far guys.
Anyone else got any input on the relative power level of Theosophist (with or without good Fort saves)?
Any other cool ideas?
I am doing something similar for my campaign. I dropped them down to d6/wizard bab, gave them light armor proficiency (and I think shields as well), but kept the good Fort and Will saves (all classes have 2 good saves in my campaign). I fused the Archivist (Heroes of Horror 3.5 edition) in with the Cleric, giving them their Dark Knowledge ability (also gave them a spell (prayer) book). Haven't seen the Theosopist, so can't comment on it.
If you take away their armor proficiencies, I would say give them the Mage Armor and Shield spells, to bump up their AC. And with this, I think I will take a look at the Theosophist to see what that is like.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/archetypes/kobold-press /theosophist
That's the link to the entry on d20pfsrd.
Because spell focused characters are naturally more powerful than melee focused characters, you would expect a cleric that gives up melee capability for comparable spell capability to be better (see: Archivist).
The theosophist looks ok, but honestly, why do you need to adjust anything at all? Just play a cleric with a low STR and light/no armour who relies entirely on spellcasting. The little bit of extra BAB and fort hardly ruins the concept. You could perhaps ask your GM if you could trade both light and medium armour proficiency for a set feat (scribe scroll perhaps?), but I don't see the need for much more.