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I want to suggest a few minor fixes to the Rogue class, ones that can be done without rewriting the class, a new edition, FAQ's, and so forth. In other words, just a few new talents, or maybe feats that will help the rogue out a bit.
Let us keep this to constructive ideas only, please. There are many threads where the utility of the rogue has been discussed.
Ok, my biggest issue is the "once per day talents' . It's rough spending one of your precious class features on something which can only be used once a day, especially when so many similar spell caster features are "3X= Int/Wis/ or Cha bonus"
So, Rogue Talent "Do it one more time!: This talent allows a rogue to use any and all limited use rogue talents (such as "Resiliency") more time per day. If the rogue has more than one of these, he gets to use all of them one additional time. This talent can only be taken when available thru a level of Rogue, it is not available when taking other class levels that get access to rogue talents."
Advanced Talent: "More, more More!" This Advanced talent allows a rogue to use any and all limited use rogue talents (such as "Resiliency") three more times per day. If the rogue has more than one of these, he gets to use all of them three more additional times. This talent can only be taken when available thru a level of Rogue, it is not available when taking other class levels that get access to rogue talents. This stacks with ""Do it one more time!", if both talents are taken, each and every limited use talent is usable four more times per day."
"Thanks Buddy": When a Rogue takes this talent, he can designate a 'flanking buddy". When engaged in melee combat when both are flanking, the rogue can have one melee hit per round go against his "buddy' instead. The buddy must be willing."
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I like Combat Swipe, which gives Improved Steal as a bonus feat (and without the prerequisites). I think that's the way to go.
Combat maneuvers seems very roguish to me. I'd love to see more of these, especially Improved Trip, Improved Feint, and Improved Dirty Trick, be accessible without prereqs through Rogue Talents.
New Talents:
Shadow Fighting
-Rogues with this talent gain the Shadow Strike feat and the Blind-fight feat.
Deceitful Blades:
-Rogues with this talent gain the Improved and Greater Feint feats even if they do not meet the prerequisites.
Dirty Fighter:
-Rogues with this talent gain the Improved and Greater Dirty Trick feats even if they do not meet the prerequisites. The rogue may use her sleight of hand check in place of her CMB when making the Dirty trick maneuver.
Advance Talents:
Greater Deceitful Blades:
-Rogues with this talent can feint as a swift action with a -5 penalty to the bluff check
Rapid Sniping:
-Rogues with this may stealth as a free action while sniping. The penalty to the stealth check is increased by 10.
New Talents:
Shadow Fighting
-Rogues with this talent gain the Shadow Strike feat and the Blind-fight feat.Deceitful Blades:
-Rogues with this talent gain the Improved and Greater Feint feats even if they do not meet the prerequisites.Dirty Fighter:
-Rogues with this talent gain the Improved and Greater Dirty Trick feats even if they do not meet the prerequisites. The rogue may use her sleight of hand check in place of her CMB when making the Dirty trick maneuver.Advance Talents:
Greater Deceitful Blades:
-Rogues with this talent can feint as a swift action with a -5 penalty to the bluff checkRapid Sniping:
-Rogues with this may stealth as a free action while sniping. The penalty to the stealth check is increased by 10.
Since a Talent is more or less a feat, given two feats per talent is a bit much, don;t you think?
Since a Talent is more or less a feat, given two feats per talent is a bit much, don;t you think?Revelations are as much a feat analog as rogue talents and Oracles can get two or three feats out of one revelation.
Patching up rogue specific feat taxes with twofer talents is exactly the kind of thing they need if you aren't willing to do a real fix.
Rogue Talent: Trickster
- When performing a combat maneuver against a foe eligible to be sneak attacked the rogue may add 1 per sneak attack die to his CMB. This bonus to maneuvers applies even to creatures immune to sneak attack damage.Rogue Talent: Mechanical Mage
- The rogue receives a caster level (but no spell slots) equal to his rogue level and can activate magical devices as a wizard of his level. He may recharge one staff charge per day so long as the staff's caster level does not exceed his own. If the rogue posses arcane casting levels he may add those levels to his rogue levels for this talent and activate magic items from that class's list as if they were on the wizard list.Rogue Talent: Passing Blow
- When tumbling through an opponent's square you may make a free attack at your highest BAB.Rogue Talent: Underfoot
- When using acrobatics to tumble against large or larger opponents they must subtract their size modifier from CMD instead of adding it.Advanced Rogue Talent: Sudden Flurry
- The rogue receives pounce as the universal monster ability. When charging from stealth he does not break stealth until after his full attack. ...
I see your point.
However, then if we do those super talents, they really need to be Advanced talents, to stop dipping tow levels of rogue and getting one of them.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Er, shouldn't this thread be in Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew?
Anyway, here are some I've been working on:
Dirty Fighting: Select one of the following combat maneuvers: disarm, dirty trick, steal, or trip. You count as having 13 INT and Combat Expertise for the purposes of qualifying for that maneuver's "Improved" and "Greater" feats (such as Improved Disarm and Greater Disarm). Additionally, you treat your rogue level as your Base Attack Bonus when performing or resisting that maneuver, as well as for purposes of qualifying for that maneuver's "Greater" feat.
You may select this talent more than once, each time applying it to a different maneuver.
Fierce Opportunist: Whenever you make an attack that qualifies for Sneak Attack (such as against a flanked foe), treat your rogue level as your Base Attack Bonus.
Resilient: You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against poison.
Battlefield Rogue: You gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude saving throws. Additionally, you are treated as having a fighter level equal to 3/4 of your rogue level for the purposes of qualifying for feats and determining their effects. If you have actual levels in fighter, these levels stack.
While He's Down: Creatures that are prone are subject to your sneak attacks, just like a flanked or flat-footed creature. This does not grant any special bonus to hit the creature nor does it bypass any immunities or special defenses the creature might have.
Er, shouldn't this thread be in Suggestions/Houserules/Homebrew?
Anyway, here are some I've been working on:
Dirty Fighting: Select one of the following combat maneuvers: disarm, dirty trick, steal, or trip. You count as having 13 INT and Combat Expertise for the purposes of qualifying for that maneuver's "Improved" and "Greater" feats (such as Improved Disarm and Greater Disarm). Additionally, you treat your rogue level as your Base Attack Bonus when performing or resisting that maneuver, as well as for purposes of qualifying for that maneuver's "Greater" feat.
You may select this talent more than once, each time applying it to a different maneuver.Fierce Opportunist: Whenever you make an attack that qualifies for Sneak Attack (such as against a flanked foe), treat your rogue level as your Base Attack Bonus.
Resilient: You gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against poison.
Battlefield Rogue: You gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude saving throws. Additionally, you are treated as having a fighter level equal to 3/4 of your rogue level for the purposes of qualifying for feats and determining their effects. If you have actual levels in fighter, these levels stack.
While He's Down: Creatures that are prone are subject to your sneak attacks, just like a flanked or flat-footed creature. This does not grant any special bonus to hit the creature nor does it bypass any immunities or special defenses the creature might have.
Like them. But since Talents are about a feat, and a feat gets you +2 to all Fort saves, how about +4 vs poison? for one and +2 for the other?
I think this is in the wrong forum, but I'll post some rogue talents I made.
Across the Moat, Over the Walls: Gain half your rogue level to Climb and Swim checks.
Gang Fighter: The Rogue gains solo tactics as an Inquisitor. Additionally, she gains one teamwork feat as a bonus feat.
Jump ‘em!: Gain +1 to initiative every 4 rogue levels. This bonus is doubled if you can act in the surprise round.
Whites of Their Eyes: Gain the Point Blank Shot feat. Extend the effects of this feat and the range of Sneak Attack by 10 feet. If the range of Point Blank Shot is ever increased by any other means, the maximum range of Sneak Attack increases with it.
Opportunist: A rogue that selects this talent gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, and gains +2 bonus to attack rolls when making attacks of opportunities.
Advanced Rogue Talents
Tough Attitude: A rogue gains their Charisma bonus to Fortitude and Will saving throws.
Fearsome: Gain half your Rogue level to Intimidate. You can use intimidate to demoralize one creature within 30 feet as a free action when you can act in the surprise round. If you successfully demoralize an enemy in the surprise round, and hit that enemy with your sneak attack they are frightened for 1 round before suffering the normal effects of being demoralized.
Like them. But since Talents are about a feat, and a feat gets you +2 to all Fort saves, how about +4 vs poison? for one and +2 for the other?I thought about scaling the poison one; adjust to taste.
What's "the other"?
I was thinking Battlefield Rogue, but I see you made that a generic +1 to Fort.
The problem with rogue talents as they are right now is that they don't have a "minimum rogue level" like Rage Powers or discoveries. Instead it is very binary in that the only levels you care about are 1 or 10. So you have to balance them to the power level of a level 1 rogue to account for dippers. If Paizo just did away with the stupid "Regular and Advanced talents" thing and just made them like rage powers, where they have level pre-reqs, it would be easier to power them up...
I think this is in the wrong forum,
I appreciate this, and I see it was moved, but I think it should be moved back. the idea was to counter all the "teh rouge is suxxor " threads with some realistic ideas.
Er, if you're revising the rogue anyway, why not just list prerequisites in the talents?
Er, if you're revising the rogue anyway, why not just list prerequisites in the talents?
This is a good solution. There is also precedence in the form of the (imho fairly underwhelming) Rogue Stunt tricks, which you can only learn if you have ranks in the relevant skill.
I appreciate this, and I see it was moved, but I think it should be moved back. the idea was to counter all the "teh rouge is suxxor " threads with some realistic ideas.I think this is in the wrong forum,
The thing is that General Discussion is meant to discuss the game as it is written. This forum is for what you are trying to do.
I do realize though that your intended audience is definitely not in this forum, and that does really suck. Sorry about that.
Also I think dividing Rogue Talents into "normal and Advanced" was just a terrible idea. Barbarian rage powers require random levels like 6th level, 10th level, and so on. This allows their strength to vary more, and to make it hard for a character to dip into Barbarian for the later ones.
Here are some examples of rogue talents that could benefit from level requirements.
Mage Hunter: Gain Disruptive as a Bonus Feat. Requires 6th level.
Improved Mage Hunter: The DC to cast spells defensively increases by an additional +2 for all enemies that are within your threatened area. This bonus is in addition to the Disruptive feat. Gain Spellbreaker as a bonus feat. Requires Mage Hunter. Requires 10th level. This Rogue talent counts as the Major Magic Rogue Talent for the purposes of qualifying for the Dispelling Attack Advanced Rogue Talent.
New Talents:
Combined Strike:
-A rogue with this talent can augment her sneak attacks with two rogue talents instead of one.
Backstab*:
-A rogue with this talent may do additional weapon dice damage with melee sneak attacks as per the following table.
level weapon dice
1-4 ×2
5-8 ×3
9-12 ×4
13+ ×5
Until the rogue's next turn enemies may backstab the rogue provided the attack would be a sneak attack if the foe had the sneak attack ability.
This ability does damage even to creatures immune to sneak attack.New Advance Talent:
Careful Attack:
Prerequisite: rogue level 15
-A rogue with this talent may as a standard action sneak attack a foe. If the attack normally would have been a sneak attack then this attack does twice the normal amount of dice in sneak attack damage. Against foes that are immune to sneak attacks, treat the roll on every dice as 1.
Er, if you're revising the rogue anyway, why not just list prerequisites in the talents?
NOT revising. That's important. We're adding new features, not changing old rules. Changing old rules is very difficult. New features are added all the time.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I was thinking Battlefield Rogue, but I see you made that a generic +1 to Fort.Like them. But since Talents are about a feat, and a feat gets you +2 to all Fort saves, how about +4 vs poison? for one and +2 for the other?I thought about scaling the poison one; adjust to taste.
What's "the other"?
Not to mention it does other things besides boost your Fort save.
Dotting this thread for further study.
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I apologize for the stupid talent names and bad formatting, but here are the ones I allow as house rules in my home game.
Surprisingly Strong - When a rogue is attacking something that would have sneak attack damage applied were the attack to hit, that rogue gets to add 1/2 their class level (rounded down, min 1) on the to-hit roll. I.E. when a 7th level rogue is flanking a bad guy, s/he gets to add +3 to their attack roll. If a 10th level rogue is invisible attack something unable to perceive them, they get to add +5 to their attack roll.
Make This One Count - A rogue may use impromptu sneak attack (as per the Arcane Trickster ability) once per day. This increases to an additional one every 6 levels (I.E. once up to 6th level, twice per day at 6th, 3x per day at 12th, etc, etc).
Big Risk - A rogue with this talent may lose their own dex bonus to AC until the start of their next turn in order to make a single enemy of their choice lose dex bonus to AC for a single attack.
New Advance Talent:
Slayer's Flurry:
-As a fullround action a rogue with this talent may attack foes as attacks of opportunity. She may attack the same foe multiple times this way. Using this ability causes a rogue to lose her dex bonus to AC until her next turn and expends any additional attacks of opportunity she might have left for the round.
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I'll give it a go:
Dodging Vitality: A Rogue who selects this talent gains DR/- equal to the number of extra damage dice she gets when she successfully sneak attacks. She does not gain this DR if she loses her Dex bonus to AC, her motion is inhibited[by difficult terrain, being underwater, etc] or if she has a condition that reduces her move speed[such as a Slow spell]. This talent may only be selected by a Rogue of 6th level or higher with the Offensive Defense talent.
Adaptive Flanker:Any time a Rogue with this talent is threatening at an enemy that at least 1 other ally is threatening, she is treated as flanking for the purpose of making a sneak attack. She does not, however, gain the +2 bonus for flanking unless she would be flanking without this talent. A Rogue with this talent who also has the Gang-Up Feat gains the +2 Flanking Bonus against opponents the she and 1 other ally are threatening.
Gang Fighter:A Rogue with this talent gains any one , Combat Expertise and Gang-Up as bonus feats, and is treated as having a 13 Intelligence for the purpose of meeting the prerequisites of combat or teamwork feats. She also gains the Outflank Feat as soon as her Base Attack Bonus reaches +4 or selects this talent.
Some of these are more powerful than a feat, but Rogue Talents IMO should be, as they are one of the few class features that the rogue has and Paizo doesn't hand out to others like Candy on Halloween, and nearly all the similar mechanics in the game [Revelations, Rage Powers, Hexes, Alchemical Discoveries, Arcanist Exploits, Ninja Tricks, etc.] provide options that are clearly more powerful than feats.
some advanced talent
Masterful Feint:
Pre-req: Rogue 15th level
Feint can instead apply Helpless to a target for your next attack, reflex save negates, DC 10 + 1/2 rogue level + int mod. If the target saves, he is flat footed as per normal and the daily use is lost. Can be used one time per day. This does not work with feats that modify who can take advantage of your feint. This feat can be taken a second time to allow you to borrow uses from coming days up to a week, days must be taken in order of sequence. if you are on a day that had it's use borrowed, you can not use this feat nor borrow uses from days in the coming week to do so, a day ends at midnight for this feat.
(This would effectively give him a coup de grace, next round/this round for him only.)
Making it Count:
When about to make a melee attack against an opponent that would be flat footed from either being unaware of you, or unaware of any hostile intentions. Depending on which case, you may either roll an opposed stealth-perception check if the target is unaware of you, or an opposed sleight of hand-perception check, if you succeed you may perform a coup de grace as the character otherwise is considered under your mercy until the attack lands or until the end of your turn. To stealth afterwards/maintain your disguise you must make a stealth check at -20.
(this SHOULD ONLY apply to the following situations, you are stealthing up on someone outside of combat, you are disguised and approaching the target outside of combat, or are disguised/is an ally in combat, you disguised in combat as someone that is assumed to be non-threatening while in combat such as a civilian running in fear amongst a crowd of such civilians. If you can find additional situations which could count the language should be changed to support only the above situations)
aka, i think rogues should really be able to kill things if they're doing what rogues stereotypically do best.
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Wow, guys, thanks for all the input. As many of you know, I have a soft spot for the Thief class, and even tho I know the current rogue can still be a fun class to play and doesn't suck as badly as many claim, it still needs a little boost.
The devs promised us "cool new rogue talent" and here are many great free ideas for them. (Some pretty bad names, of which mine are likely the worst).
Obviously they aren;t coming out with PF2 anytime soon, and so "fixes' will have to be within addition supplements and additions, not revisions. More cool new rogue talents work well for this.
Design Team, are you listening?
Pointedly,
These fixes aren't going to be of much use unless a required Rogue level is listed in the prerequisites as it'll just make the Rogue replacements who can nab rogue talents even better.
Fortune's Favored(Ex): Rogue 4 required, A Rogue with this talent gains a +1 Luck Bonus to all Saving Throws and Profession(Gambler) checks for every 4 Rogue levels attained.
Advanced Rogue Talent
Fortune's Favored, Improved(Ex): A Rogue with this talent may roll two d20s when making a Saving Throw or Profession(Gambler) check and take the better result.
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Limitless Talent: A Rogue with this talent may use any rogue talent that can be used 1+1 per 5 levels an unlimited number of times per day. A Rogue must be 8th level and have 2 of said talents to select this talent.
Improvisational: A Rogue with this talent gains Catch-Off Guard and Throw Anything as bonus feats. Furthermore, if the first attack a Rogue makes in a fight is with an improvised melee weapon, the target is considered flat-footed v. that attack. A Rogue must be 4th level to select this talent.
Evasive Maneuvers: A Rogue with this talent gains the Agile Maneuvers feat and may use her Dexterity in place of her Strength when calculating her Combat Maneuver Defense. This does allow her to add twice her Dexterity to CMD.
Reflexive: A Rogue with this talent gains Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. In addition, she gains a +2 to Reflex saves, initiative checks, and may always act in a surprise round though if she is not aware of it she goes last in the surprise round regardless of her initiative. A rogue must be 4th level and have Evasion to select this talent.
Advanced Talents:
Accidental Sneak Attack: As a Standard Action, a Rogue with this talent may choose to provoke an attack of opportunity from one enemy. If the attack hits, she may roll damage as if she had successfully made a sneak attack against that opponent by "accidentally" hitting him in retaliation. If the attack misses, she may make a single attack that counts as an attack of opportunity against that enemy, at a -4 penalty. If the attack is not taken, she may make a single attack that counts as an attack of opportunity against that enemy's flat-footed AC. A Rogue must be 14th level to select this talent.
Pierce Intestines.
When comfirming a critical hit using a piercing weapon, you can add 1,5 times your sneak attack damage. You can not forgo any of this damage for other talents or deal non lethal damage using pierce intestines.
Good one, Tcho!
Bumping as this issue has come up, recently.
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I'll bite:
Deadly Dagger (Ex):
A dagger in the hands of a rogue with this talent is even more deadly. It's base damage increases to 1d6, it's critical threat range increases to x18-20, and it's range increment increases by +10 feet. As a readied action, the rogue may forego her attacks of opportunity this round to make a single attack against a foe within point blank range. If this attack succeeds, she may add her sneak attack dice to the damage roll. She takes a -2 to her AC for 1 round after using this ability.
Regarding "Do it one more time": I'd rather just ditch the daily limits--not because they're imbalanced, but because they're dissociated to a fault.
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blahpers,
though most posters here likely share your opinion, i believe the OP's objective is to create new talents rather than modify old ones.
(off-topic)
though i am curious your opinion on my efforts to do exactly that here. for example, what i have done with Resiliency, Assault Leader, Camouflage, Thoughtful Reexamining, and the like.
blahpers,
though most posters here likely share your opinion, i believe the OP's objective is to create new talents rather than modify old ones.
In that case, I'd ramp up the talent to drop the limits rather than extend them. That has the added bonus of being rogue-only for those who like that.
What about stacking talents with levels? In example, the Oracle class feature "revelation" usually grants one bonus whenever it's taken, which then advances at X level, and then again at Y level...
So to refer to these listed talents, and indeed any Rogue talent, wouldn't it be great if we got "Improved feat" by taking the talent at level 2 or anytime after, but at level 8 (where BAB reaches 6, most other pre-req's are met) it becomes "Greater feat", without having to waste another talent or feat... If I take the talent at level 8, I still get both feats, but by taking it at 2 I'm not getting access to feats the Fighter doesn't even have.
Also, +1 for talents usable more than once per day (like Resiliency)
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if limits are dropped and not replaced with anything what then would be the limit or drawback of using Resiliency? can i loop it?
i think you got to take it on a case-by-case basis.
what about:
Do It One More Time:
A rogue who selects this talent gains an additional number of uses per day equal her rogue level plus her Charisma bonus (if any). She may apply these to any talents she knows which have a limited per-day use, but if she stretches the limit beyond it's ordinary maximum, she becomes fatigued for 1 minute.