This has always puzzled me, and this is exactly why I find it so hard to roleplay Clerics/Oracles/Inquisitors.
I've tried to do a prayer in specific way once in a while, but it gets either really serious and boring.
I find it hard to play a religious character in a fun way, their doctrine would require them to act in a specific manner and to not do certain quests your GM might want you to.
I always make sure my characters have a religion, or at least a specific reason for being an "atheist" (though as the article indirectly points out, it's often more of a "shunner of the gods" than a true non-believer). It definitely makes me feel more immersed in the world. My favorite part of Pathfinder is character creation, and I feel religion is an important aspect of this.
That said, I do tend to agree with Titan. I feel the Pathfinder gods are too specific in their creeds and tend to limit characters, at least divine ones who should theoretically exemplify their god's creed. In my games, I use homebrew gods with a large range of things in their portfolio. Different sects of each god pay attention to different parts of the portfolio. I also kept these gods alignment free, so each sect is aligned, and the gods help all of their sects and followers. I also made a specific religion devoted to following all the gods equally, just for the extra flexibility it offers.
This has always puzzled me, and this is exactly why I find it so hard to roleplay Clerics/Oracles/Inquisitors.
I've tried to do a prayer in specific way once in a while, but it gets either really serious and boring.I find it hard to play a religious character in a fun way, their doctrine would require them to act in a specific manner and to not do certain quests your GM might want you to.
Well, here's the thing ... in PF, characters are not religious. Religion is based on faith and belief in the unprovable. In Golarion, the gods are simply known to exist; it's a fact. So it's less 'worshiping a god' than 'kissing someone's butt'.
My characters operate on the idea that I'm gonna do what I want, and if this pleases some overbearing outsider with delusions of grandeur, fine, if not, fine.
I look at it like this: say I'm playing a fighter. He's got no real religious bones in him, but he knows (as Z-dawg points out) that gods exist. He gets to a spot and needs some luck; he throws out a "Cayden Help Me" and dives for the rope. Later he needs to push just a bit farther in a forced march; he might toss up a "Desna, give me the strength" or "Zon Kuthon, I'm not worthy..." to carry on.
In other words if you don't get any spells from 'em, you just respect what they do and that's the end of it.
To that end my fighter would know (not have faith in, but KNOW) that Erastil's in the trees, Gozreh's in the water, and Pharasma's in the grave. He'd respect their authority over such things but he'd have the barest inkling of who they really are and how to go about paying them homage. If he's kind of a jerk, he'd ignore that knowledge. If he's got some good in his alignment then, as above, he might just wing it to pray to them.
The wizard I'm playing currently is well aware that the gods exist and that they have power. He doesn't follow any of them though as he's the type to rely on himself and / or his allies. He doesn't pray to them either. He doubts they care about a single lowly wizard out of so many others. His own personal faith I suppose. One in him and his group.
Only way I have dealt with religion was making one. Amazing what you can do with a few illusions and bluff checks. That's the easy way to become a high priest. I kind of wish there was a way in the rules to channel belief.
Only way I have dealt with religion was making one. Amazing what you can do with a few illusions and bluff checks. That's the easy way to become a high priest. I kind of wish there was a way in the rules to channel belief.
There is. 'Cleric of an ideal/philosophy'.
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Well, here's the thing ... in PF, characters are not religious. Religion is based on faith and belief in the unprovable. In Golarion, the gods are simply known to exist; it's a fact.
That's not necessarily true at all. First, there's little evidence for the existence of the Gods at all from most people's perspective. Their existence is objective and provable, but not with tools most people have access to (Clerics aren't actually very good proof given that Bards, Druids, and Witches can do the same sorts of thing sans God), honestly, to really prove it you need Commune or Plane Shift, and those aren't common in the least.
And that aside, there's also having faith that your deity's philosophy on life is right, that they truly are the best God to follow, that they are good and right and deserving of your worship. That's faith, even if you know they exist.
So it's less 'worshiping a god' than 'kissing someone's butt'.
That's pretty much completely untrue. Even leaving aside the arguments above, following and working for someone and agreeing with their philosophy does not inherently makes one a kiss-ass. People who follow inspirational military commanders into battle leap to mind, for example.
My characters operate on the idea that I'm gonna do what I want, and if this pleases some overbearing outsider with delusions of grandeur, fine, if not, fine.
Uh...speaking as someone who believes in non-omnipotent deities in real life, this is getting awfully close to insulting some real world religions. Mine included. The fact that a deity isn't all powerful doesn't inherently make them 'overbearing' or mean they have 'delusions of grandeur'.
It's not quite over the line, and I don't think that was your intent...but be careful, there.
@DM Dub: I had no idea of that about you. That's really interesting. Is it challenging morally/spiritually for you to play these games or does your real world faith actually make RPing easier?
Back on topic though the walking dead brings up a good point: if a witch gets spells from a "patron" and can cast healing spells, doesn't that kind of make them a person of faith? For this reason I have all kinds of different classes representing the clergy in my homebrews. My faves are Abadar and Pharasma.
Abadar: I have a dwarven fighter/stalwart defender as a high priest of Abadar. He doesn't get any healing from the god; he has battle medics for that. I know it crosses the line into Iomedae's territory but the dwarf runs a prison which is also one of the layers of defense for this particular city so the dwarf warden worships the god in the vein of defense and law.
Pharasma: I have a witch with an undead familiar worshipping/leading services of Pharasma in my games. She inhabits the woods outside of town and has a few animal spies who tell her when someone in town is either about to give birth or about to die/has died. She then uses spells to speed travel to the town, arrives, and delivers some Pharasmin rite over life and death. There is a graveyard between her and the town that she watches over and the appreciative townsfolk leave her trinkets, food and other things as payment near the cemetery gates.
I mean honestly: if you're running a homebrew there's no reason the clergy of a faith has to be clerics and oracles or druids. I could very well see a church of Norgorber run by rogues as part of a protection racket or a barbarian heading up a cult of Gorum.
And that aside, there's also having faith that your deity's philosophy on life is right, that they truly are the best God to follow, that they are good and right and deserving of your worship. That's faith, even if you know they exist.
Then why do you need one?
People who follow inspirational military commanders into battle leap to mind, for example.
I've never heard of an inspirational military commander demanding that his troops fall to their knees and perform rituals in his name.
The fact that a deity isn't all powerful doesn't inherently make them 'overbearing' or mean they have 'delusions of grandeur'.
Anything that expects, much less demands, to be worshiped is, IMFAO, overbearing and has delusions of grandeur. Or emotionally immature and needy, going 'pay attention to ME' like a kid throwing a tantrum.
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Then why do you need one?
Why do people ever follow any philosophy or consider any idea good that they didn't come up with themselves? Because they believe that the people who came up with that idea are wiser, or more knowledgeable, or more morally sound than they are, and have ideas worth following.
I've never heard of an inspirational military commander demanding that his troops fall to their knees and perform rituals in his name.
Who says most Gods demand anything of the sort? That's people doing that, not the god demanding it (well, for most Good deities anyway). And people have certainly had cults of personality to military leaders.
Anything that expects, much less demands, to be worshiped is, IMFAO, overbearing and has delusions of grandeur. Or emotionally immature and needy, going 'pay attention to ME' like a kid throwing a tantrum.
Anyone sufficiently powerful expects people to react to that power, the way they expect other logical things to occur. That in no way means they demand it, or feel entitled to it. Those are different things and the latter two are not generally characteristics of most Good deities.