Yes, those books you can't really take in public!
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Sometimes I do feel the cover art to be... not the best choices.... Inner Sea Gods for example. The cover is a great piece of art, but the wrong one for the cover.
Maybe not a great cover, per se. Could have been better. Could have been more representative of divine power.
But over sexualized ? This one ? No. I barely see anything worth of interest.
Sometimes I do feel the cover art to be... not the best choices.... Inner Sea Gods for example. The cover is a great piece of art, but the wrong one for the cover.Maybe not a great cover, per se. Could have been better. Could have been more representative of divine power.
But over sexualized ? This one ? No. I barely see anything worth of interest.
Oh heavens no it's definitely not sexualised! I meants it as
"This is cool art, but when someone who doesn't play PF sees the cover it's awkward"
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All that said. Do you guys and girls realize how many classic masterpieces of fantasy art would have never existed if political correctness had had its way back then ? Censorship is not conducive to creation.
Art direction is hardly censorship.
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Not sure why overly prude people should be a guideline for PF covers.
well i liked the cover for both raiders of the fever sea and inner sea gods:)
i seem to remember a certain lich on a AP cover that didn't exactly match the NPC but was still a super awesome cover.
Sometimes I do feel the cover art to be... not the best choices.... Inner Sea Gods for example. The cover is a great piece of art, but the wrong one for the cover.Maybe not a great cover, per se. Could have been better. Could have been more representative of divine power.
But over sexualized ? This one ? No. I barely see anything worth of interest.
Oh heavens no it's definitely not sexualised! I meants it as
"This is cool art, but when someone who doesn't play PF sees the cover it's awkward"
i never feel awkward taking any of my pathfinder books out in public, kids see worse sexist advertisements on the side of a bus, and they see worse gore and hear more despicable imagery on TV.
compared to all that pathfinder book covers are downright tame! with super awesome art (seriously people pick up a book from 2nd edition DnD for occasionally sexist AND downright terrible artwork
Can we please close this thread? All sides have expressed their opinions and other than arguments about specific cases, we're seeing the same arguments and a repeated non agreement to disagree which can be repeated ad finitum.
you know if they close it down, a new thread with a slightly different title about the same subject is going to spring up an hour later, with all the same arguments etc.:)
That's nothing, if you've seen Exalted book covers.Oh God, that Panty Sorceress.
and where might i find this cover.... :D
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and where might i find this cover.... :DThat's nothing, if you've seen Exalted book covers.Oh God, that Panty Sorceress.
It was in the interior...
...so to speak.
EDIT - pres man's right, I was thinking of the Pantyflasher Dawn Caste. It's easy to get confused with such things where Exalted is concerned.
and where might i find this cover.... :DThat's nothing, if you've seen Exalted book covers.Oh God, that Panty Sorceress.
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Can we please close this thread? All sides have expressed their opinions and other than arguments about specific cases, we're seeing the same arguments and a repeated non agreement to disagree which can be repeated ad finitum.you know if they close it down, a new thread with a slightly different title about the same subject is going to spring up an hour later, with all the same arguments etc.:)
Maybe we could at least get a cool new thread name!
More seriously, as a male 40 something who remembers chain mail bikinis and lingerie witches, I could easily be saying something like "could these hyper politically correct whiners please shut up. Haven't we made a good faith effort to make room?"
On the other hand, a thirty something female who has been harassed a few times at the table might have a different perspective.
It's a good idea for both sides to remember this.
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Can we please close this thread? All sides have expressed their opinions and other than arguments about specific cases, we're seeing the same arguments and a repeated non agreement to disagree which can be repeated ad finitum.you know if they close it down, a new thread with a slightly different title about the same subject is going to spring up an hour later, with all the same arguments etc.:)Maybe we could at least get a cool new thread name!
More seriously, as a male 40 something who remembers chain mail bikinis and lingerie witches, I could easily be saying something like "could these hyper politically correct whiners please shut up. Haven't we made a good faith effort to make room?"
On the other hand, a thirty something female who has been harassed a few times at the table might have a different perspective.
It's a good idea for both sides to remember this.
No. Those are not equivalent.
I know you probably didn't intend it that way, but as it reads, your first statement implies that this hobby somehow belongs to you because you're male, and that you're doing us some sort of favor by allowing us to participate in your hobby. It doesn't belong solely to you and people like you, and you don't get to say, well, we'll be a little less hostile and a little less objectifying and now shut up and be glad you got that much, you interlopers.
I am not an interloper, a guest, a foreigner, to the Land of RPGs because I am a woman. Neither are non-straight people, people of color, or anyone else.
Your second statement -- which, incidentally, is me -- is someone presumably 100% justifiably upset about her right to participate in her hobby in peace being infringed.
So yeah, the way you framed it there? Those two sides aren't equally valid.
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Can we please close this thread? All sides have expressed their opinions and other than arguments about specific cases, we're seeing the same arguments and a repeated non agreement to disagree which can be repeated ad finitum.you know if they close it down, a new thread with a slightly different title about the same subject is going to spring up an hour later, with all the same arguments etc.:)Maybe we could at least get a cool new thread name!
More seriously, as a male 40 something who remembers chain mail bikinis and lingerie witches, I could easily be saying something like "could these hyper politically correct whiners please shut up. Haven't we made a good faith effort to make room?"
On the other hand, a thirty something female who has been harassed a few times at the table might have a different perspective.
It's a good idea for both sides to remember this.
No. Those are not equivalent.
I know you probably didn't intend it that way, but as it reads, your first statement implies that this hobby somehow belongs to you because you're male, and that you're doing us some sort of favor by allowing us to participate in your hobby. It doesn't belong solely to you and people like you, and you don't get to say, well, we'll be a little less hostile and a little less objectifying and now shut up and be glad you got that much, you interlopers.
I am not an interloper, a guest, a foreigner, to the Land of RPGs because I am a woman. Neither are non-straight people, people of color, or anyone else.
Your second statement -- which, incidentally, is me -- is someone presumably 100% justifiably upset about her right to participate in her hobby in peace being infringed.
So yeah, the way you framed it there? Those two sides aren't equally valid.
I don't normally get involved in back and forth banter, but he didn't say they were equivalent. They're obviously not, to me at least. We're on a slippery slope when we start to put words into other people's mouths.
Whilst I think this is a topic very worthy of debate, I too vote for it to be closed; too many passions are being stoked.
Truly wonderful isn't it? I really wanted a piece of artwork that demonstrated what a male power fantasy truly is! I may have seen others that exemplify it more, but I can't think of others off the top of my head.
It's from an anime/manga called Hokuto no Ken (or Fist of the North Star) which is pure male power fantasy from page 1 all the way to the end.
His muscles in actionI like the art of men in Pathfinder because they rarely conform to "Male Power Fantasy" and many fall into the camp of "beefcake."
We still fight. fighting in the eighties (eighties)...
Be aware that their is a difference between Sex object aimed at those who find the male form attractive and testosterone overloadsI felt this needed to be requoted with the new thread direction.
Do Male power fantasies exist? Yes, they are real and exist.
However a lot of times something is accused of being a male power fantasy when it really isn't and I don't like seeing good art being mislabled.
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I don't normally get involved in back and forth banter, but he didn't say they were equivalent....Can we please close this thread? All sides have expressed their opinions and other than arguments about specific cases, we're seeing the same arguments and a repeated non agreement to disagree which can be repeated ad finitum.you know if they close it down, a new thread with a slightly different title about the same subject is going to spring up an hour later, with all the same arguments etc.:)Maybe we could at least get a cool new thread name!
More seriously, as a male 40 something who remembers chain mail bikinis and lingerie witches, I could easily be saying something like "could these hyper politically correct whiners please shut up. Haven't we made a good faith effort to make room?"
On the other hand, a thirty something female who has been harassed a few times at the table might have a different perspective.
It's a good idea for both sides to remember this.
No. Those are not equivalent.
I know you probably didn't intend it that way, but as it reads, your first statement implies that this hobby somehow belongs to you because you're male, and that you're doing us some sort of favor by allowing us to participate in your hobby. It doesn't belong solely to you and people like you, and you don't get to say, well, we'll be a little less hostile and a little less objectifying and now shut up and be glad you got that much, you interlopers.
I am not an interloper, a guest, a foreigner, to the Land of RPGs because I am a woman. Neither are non-straight people, people of color, or anyone else.
Your second statement -- which, incidentally, is me -- is someone presumably 100% justifiably upset about her right to participate in her hobby in peace being infringed.
So yeah, the way you framed it there? Those two sides aren't equally valid.
The first post is the perspective of a 40 someone (not me btw, but who is of my generation and could have been me) who looks at Paizo and sees how far the hobby has come from 'back in the day' and genuinely feels like others are demanding a change in the game and are being infringed on by the demands of the the OP to get a product they like and enjoy and feel justified (just as much as you do) in saying 'enough'.
You are not an interloper. But remember that these people are not interlopers either and both sides of this debate should keep this in mind, and try to see that the other's POV is genuine and heartfelt.
They may even be wrong. But just telling them how wrong they are will likely only harden their position.
Take Care,
Kerney
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As an almost 40 something (a few more months), whitest of the white (seriously I go out in the sun and I burn up like this), malest of the male, straightest of the straight, cisgenderest of the cisgender, I can say I am more than comfortable enough with my own self and I know where to find images of hot ladies if I really want to, that I don't feel like dialing back the cheesecake and NPC interactions that are theoretically geared towards me is going to have any effect on my enjoyment. You want to have some non-rapey male types hitting on PCs (male and/or female), great. My characters are there for business, not to start a family (which is what I would want out of a PC-NPC relationship, not merely a booty call).
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The first post is the perspective of a 40 someone (not me btw, but who is of my generation and could have been me) who looks at Paizo and sees how far the hobby has come from 'back in the day' and genuinely feels like others are demanding a change in the game and are being infringed on by the demands of the the OP to get a product they like and enjoy and feel justified (just as much as you do) in saying 'enough'.
You are not an interloper. But remember that these people are not interlopers either and both sides of this debate should keep this in mind, and try to see that the other's POV is genuine and heartfelt.
They may even be wrong. But just telling them how wrong they are will likely only harden their position.
Take Care,
Kerney
Right. Or to put it another way, in this and other threads it has been inferred and even outright said that straight white men are evil, that they've had their way for too long and have hurt X group. Which, sure, you can feel that way -- but understand that is a gross generality and there are a lot of us that might be SWM that didn't do whatever bad thing to you and yours, that have actively worked to prevent such and try pretty hard to get things changed. And to be continually slapped and minimized and told to go stand in the corner is hurtful, gets old, and leads to resentment.
Or another way: you don't like it when your particular ethnic persuasion or sexual persuasion or lifestyle choice or whatever is picked on. But it's totally ok if it is a SWM?
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I think there's a certain amount of knee-jerk reaction on the part of people who happen to be male, cisgendered and heterosexual - none of which are wrong or bad in the least - that their actual gender and orientation is being attacked. There is nothing any more wrong with liking to look at sexy women than liking to look at sexy men. Having adult sexuality should never be a punishable offense.
But, it's still a pie issue. If you can't serve pie to Team A and Team B equally, it's probably better to dial back on the pie service because it's going to cause (obviously) some resentment between the teams. The issue just gets worse because Team A's pie basically IS Team B, and that is another can of worms all by itself when people who want to be players are told that they are actually going to be served to the real players on the other team as decorative dessert, that is their expected function.
Is there some anger and resentment being generated at guys who want to look at boobs? Absolutely yes, but not for the reasons most people would automatically assume. We just want the disparity in who gets served pie to be a LITTLE less blatant and unwelcoming. That could mean both teams being served the same amount of pie, or it could mean pie service being dialed back to the point that it doesn't come at the expense of the rest of what's supposed to be on the menu, which is a cost that is always going to be paid by both teams regardless of who is enjoying the pie.
The Pie analogy is absurd. Please just drop it.
Because otherwise, what does "equality" look like?
AP's are written for four PC's. If 50% of the player base were made of people attracted to women, and the other 50% were people attracted to men, (ignoring the potentiality of people playing opposited gendered characters) then 2 male and 2 female romance options would be perfectly valid.
But, what if it's 75% to 25%? Would 3 to 1 be valid? With reasonable expectation that GM's modify to suit their particular group?
Because, as a restauranteur myself, that is exactly how it would be served...
Apologies to Joanna and thejeff for escalating the Isabella Locke issue and getting a bit red-assed over it.
This topic and a number of similar ones are important to me, especially in the sense of having the hobby that I greatly enjoy continue to become more popular and accessible to those of different genders, sexual orientations, ethnicity, age, interests, etc.
The first post is the perspective of a 40 someone (not me btw, but who is of my generation and could have been me) who looks at Paizo and sees how far the hobby has come from 'back in the day' and genuinely feels like others are demanding a change in the game and are being infringed on by the demands of the the OP to get a product they like and enjoy and feel justified (just as much as you do) in saying 'enough'.
You are not an interloper. But remember that these people are not interlopers either and both sides of this debate should keep this in mind, and try to see that the other's POV is genuine and heartfelt.
They may even be wrong. But just telling them how wrong they are will likely only harden their position.
Take Care,
Kerney
Right. Or to put it another way, in this and other threads it has been inferred and even outright said that straight white men are evil, that they've had their way for too long and have hurt X group. Which, sure, you can feel that way -- but understand that is a gross generality and there are a lot of us that might be SWM that didn't do whatever bad thing to you and yours, that have actively worked to prevent such and try pretty hard to get things changed. And to be continually slapped and minimized and told to go stand in the corner is hurtful, gets old, and leads to resentment.
Or another way: you don't like it when your particular ethnic persuasion or sexual persuasion or lifestyle choice or whatever is picked on. But it's totally ok if it is a SWM?
Oh the poor SWM. The most abused and persecuted creature in the universe. Slavery, centuries of institutionalized rape and misogyny, it all pales in comparison to being told that your race and gender might have caused problems for the rest of the world.
Speaking as another straight white male: Get over it. It's not about you. You don't get be center stage in everything. It's not even about you being the bad guy. It's about the rest of the world wanting a piece of...
Don't think I asked for the control room or for it to be about me or the sarcasm. What I believe I said was that if you want people to see your side, attacking them is seldom a way to go about it.
Second, as I said, the slavery, rape and so on wasn't me. I didn't do it and don't really want to be the target for someone's ire over it.
Third, I've said at least once if not more that I think the art and situations could be improved in the material, and barring that, a group and GM should modify the material in their best interests or even for Paizo to put up extra material on the site for multiple situations. Given that Facebook had what, 50 different gender options, might be daunting to do for each adventure so having the player side have to do some of the lifting might be better.
Lastly, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, you don't get to tell me that I don't get to be upset over the way these conversations go anymore than I get to tell someone who is black to get over slavery, or a woman to get over gender inequality or so on. If I put forth 10 percent of the bile and general hostility towards another race/gender/etc on these boards that I see towards straight white males, they'd ask me to leave. I accept being a target, but I don't accept the hypocritical BS that comes with it.
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And it's a wrap, people! When does Hitler arrive?
He just did.
So he did! :)
I'm saying that I'm also a Straight White Male and I don't see this bile and general hostility I keep hearing about. There certainly wasn't any in the sequence of posts you were responding too. I do see a lot of whinging about how the poor SWMs are always persecuted. Sometimes I get fed up with it and it overflows.
Dunno, we may read different threads. I've seen the same general theme on at least half a dozen threads now and am fed up as well.
In the end, my stance is that if we all want respect and all that jazz, then we all get it, you know?
I don't care about the art or the lover interests in the adventures or how many of which are depicted. More than half the time I'd editing things for my groups, so I don't think it will cut down on my work load. And if more of the art is of half naked men instead of women, then yay? People get what they want and the arguing goes down. A win-win.
I think there's a certain amount of knee-jerk reaction on the part of people who happen to be male, cisgendered and heterosexual - none of which are wrong or bad in the least - that their actual gender and orientation is being attacked. There is nothing any more wrong with liking to look at sexy women than liking to look at sexy men. Having adult sexuality should never be a punishable offense.
But, it's still a pie issue. If you can't serve pie to Team A and Team B equally, it's probably better to dial back on the pie service because it's going to cause (obviously) some resentment between the teams. The issue just gets worse because Team A's pie basically IS Team B, and that is another can of worms all by itself when people who want to be players are told that they are actually going to be served to the real players on the other team as decorative dessert, that is their expected function.
Is there some anger and resentment being generated at guys who want to look at boobs? Absolutely yes, but not for the reasons most people would automatically assume. We just want the disparity in who gets served pie to be a LITTLE less blatant and unwelcoming. That could mean both teams being served the same amount of pie, or it could mean pie service being dialed back to the point that it doesn't come at the expense of the rest of what's supposed to be on the menu, which is a cost that is always going to be paid by both teams regardless of who is enjoying the pie.
The Pie analogy is absurd. Please just drop it.
Because otherwise, what does "equality" look like?
AP's are written for four PC's. If 50% of the player base were made of people attracted to women, and the other 50% were people attracted to men, (ignoring the potentiality of people playing opposited gendered characters) then 2 male and 2 female romance options would be perfectly valid.
But, what if it's 75% to 25%? Would 3 to 1 be valid? With reasonable expectation that GM's modify to suit their particular group?...
Wait! i missed Pie! s+#!!
Edit: In the interest of keeping the thread cool, I removed my response to thejeff above.
I'm a' guessin' they didn't pay attention to this:)
When's the next circle begin as we restate old arguments and go nowhere in this conversation?
thejeff, "If I don't see it, clearly it isn't happening so you can't talk about it."
I'm a' guessin' they didn't pay attention to this:)
My apologies. In deference to the mods I changed a great deal of the language and ramped back on as much of the aggression as I could. Some things need to be brought into the light, however.
It's amazing how in the attempt to be "progressive" it just makes a lot of people sound more bigoted.
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As an almost 40 something (a few more months), whitest of the white (seriously I go out in the sun and I burn up like this), malest of the male, straightest of the straight, cisgenderest of the cisgender, I can say I am more than comfortable enough with my own self and I know where to find images of hot ladies if I really want to, that I don't feel like dialing back the cheesecake and NPC interactions that are theoretically geared towards me is going to have any effect on my enjoyment. You want to have some non-rapey male types hitting on PCs (male and/or female), great. My characters are there for business, not to start a family (which is what I would want out of a PC-NPC relationship, not merely a booty call).
As another cisgender straight white male, I'm pretty much in agreement with all of this. For the record (well, okay, my characters aren't usually just there for business...but I'm on board with the rest of it).
Right. Or to put it another way, in this and other threads it has been inferred and even outright said that straight white men are evil, that they've had their way for too long and have hurt X group. Which, sure, you can feel that way -- but understand that is a gross generality and there are a lot of us that might be SWM that didn't do whatever bad thing to you and yours, that have actively worked to prevent such and try pretty hard to get things changed. And to be continually slapped and minimized and told to go stand in the corner is hurtful, gets old, and leads to resentment.
Or another way: you don't like it when your particular ethnic persuasion or sexual persuasion or lifestyle choice or whatever is picked on. But it's totally ok if it is a SWM?
People keep saying this...but, once again as a straight white male, I haven't noticed it at all on the Paizo forums. Heck, in the thread I did on male love interests in the APs, someone called out the mods for being misogynist for deleting a post that (apparently, I never read it) said (or implied) bad things about men in general. Which is a pretty ridiculous accusation for them to make, mind you, but the deletion underscores my point.
If my particular demographic is being insulted, I'd rather like to know. Could you provide a linked example or two? Perhaps our definitions of being 'picked on' are different...
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The post above comparing the male 40 something (which would be me :), who's had to give up the chain mail bikini and lingerie witches of his youth with the 30ish woman who's been harassed at the table as if that's enough. As if any more than that minimum is an intolerable demand.
What I've explained is such person honestly feels the game has evolved, behavior has gotten better, seen chain mail bikini disappear and seen the slobbering churl uninvited, feels comfortable introducing their children to the hobby may feel the problem has been 'fixed' and that more fixing can cross over to a 'no matter what you do, some people will never be satisfied' attack has a very different perspective than a 30ish woman whose had some bad experiences directed at them because they are a woman and that both stepping back, seeing and understanding where the other person is a good idea.
It has nothing to do about 'equality'. It is simply stating the facts on the ground.
That is very different from "has had to give up the chain mail bikini and lingerie witches of his youth"; presenting it like he grudgingly gave it up to treat girls as people rather than someone who, grew up and made a life for himself. In fact it comes off as a caricature.
All the Best,
Kerney
EDIT:Which means I'm being sucked into the debate and it's turning into just another round of "he said she said". Please lock this thread!
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People keep saying this...but, once again as a straight white male, I haven't noticed it at all on the Paizo forums. Heck, in the thread I did on male love interests in the APs, someone called out the mods for being misogynist for deleting a post that (apparently, I never read it) said (or implied) bad things about men in general. Which is a pretty ridiculous accusation, mind you, but underscores my point.If my particular demographic is being insulted, I'd rather like to know. Could you provide a linked example or two? Perhaps our definitions of being 'picked on' are different...
Just an example of someone trying to dismiss someone's opinion on the basis of their gender.
I'm very surprised at the moderation in this thread really.
The fact that people are getting away with telling others that their opinion has no value based on their gender in a thread generally about gender equality is extremely surprising.
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Locking thread. Being dismissive of others' opinions is no way to have this discussion, or any discussion on these boards.