number of weapon attacks and number of natural attacks

[Joe loves Rules]

OK, so there is some confusion (at least on my part) about how many attacks a character can make. I'm going to attempt a summary, and can rulesie people (or designers if they are so inclined...) verify or correct for me?

All of this is of course when making a full attack, and I'm not going to mention the various penalties to hit or potential AoOs since they are all spelled out pretty clearly in the rules.

First you have a potential number of weapon/unarmed attacks that is your number of arms. These attacks can come from something that is not your hand or something held in your hand (blade boots, using unarmed strike to kick, etc.), but any not-something-in-your-hand attack replaces a something-in-your-hand attack. When you attack you must declare one of these to be your main-hand (yeah it might not actually be a hand) and it gets any extra attacks from high BAB, and all the rest are off-hand. Any two-handed attacks take two of the these potential weapon/unarmed attacks. For the TWF feats that give you additional off-hand attacks, these can be chosen from any off-hand weapon/strike you have but each feat still only gives you one more attack no matter how many off-hand weapons/strikes you may have.

So for example:

Tom is a level one fighter with two arms. If he has a stabby thing in each hand, he can:
stab you twice (once each with his two stabbies) OR
stab you, kick you OR
kick you twice

he CAN NOT stab you twice and kick you

If Tom has a two-handed stabby thing, he can:
stab you once OR
kick you twice

he CAN NOT stab you and kick you

Frank is a level one fighter with four arms. If he has a stabby thing in each hand, he can:
stab you 4x OR
you get the idea - hit you four times with four different weapons or unarmed strikes

If he has two stabby things, a slice of pizza, and a beer, he can:
stab you twice and kick you twice which Tom could not even though what he has on Tom at this point is a couple of arms busy holding dinner?

If he has two two-handed stabby things, he can:
stab you twice OR (what str bonus does he get on the off-hand two-hander?)
stab you, kick you twice

Now after all that if a character has any natural attacks he can make them provided they do not use a limb that was used for a weapon/unarmed attack.

So if Tom happens to be a catfolk (hehe Tom Cat) with cat's claws he can:
(if his hands are empty) kick you twice and claw you twice OR
(if he has a stabby thing) kick you, stab you, claw you OR
(if he has a two-handed stabby thing) stab you

he CAN NOT:
attack you with his stabby thing one-handed or two-handed and then claw you

Again I'm not asserting this is all true. I'm just asking if this is how it works.

Thanks in advance for the replies!

[Mojorat]

If you have a claw claw bite, you can do that.

if you have 2 weapons two claws and a bite, you can attack with the weapons, and the bite as a secondary weapon. Neither claw is an option as a weapon is held in that hand regardless of its use.

if you have 1 weapon 2 claw and a bite, you can attack with the weapon, and both natural attacks as secondary weapons.

if you have a 2handed weapon, 2 claws and a bite you can attack with the sword and the bite as a secondary weapon.

more or less, if your hands are occupied with limbs connected to a natural attack the natural attack cannot be used. if you use NA in conjunction with a manufactured weapon (including uas) the na is a secondary weapon.

[Joe loves Rules]

Yep. That much I got. :)

[graystone]

Attack with your non-hand 'manufactured weapon'(Like armor spikes or unarmed strikes) and then claw, claw, bite as secondary attacks.

[Joe loves Rules]

Yep. That's one of the listed options under "If Tom happens to be a catfolk..."

I maybe didn't ask clearly. It's this idea of arms being the limiting factor for non-natural attacks that is really at the heart of it.

[graystone]

Joe loves Rules wrote:

I maybe didn't ask clearly. It's this idea of arms being the limiting factor for non-natural attacks that is really at the heart of it.

If you keep up with the FAQ, there is some kind of unwritten rule that you only have a number of 'hands of effort' to use equal to the number of hands you actually have. (extra hands are an exception as they don't add to 'hands of effort'.)

What this means is if you're using an item that requires 2 hands of effort, you forget how to body block/kick/head-butt in two weapon fighting. It doesn't make any sense to me, but that's how it is.

[Joe loves Rules]

Ah cool, Thanks! Do you happen to have a link?

[graystone]

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qw9 This is the basic FAQ. The thread about it went into further explanation. (I don't have to track down that thread right now.)

[Joe loves Rules]

graystone wrote:

Joe loves Rules wrote:

I maybe didn't ask clearly. It's this idea of arms being the limiting factor for non-natural attacks that is really at the heart of it.

If you keep up with the FAQ, there is some kind of unwritten rule that you only have a number of 'hands of effort' to use equal to the number of hands you actually have. (extra hands are an exception as they don't add to 'hands of effort'.)

What this means is if you're using an item that requires 2 hands of effort, you forget how to body block/kick/head-butt in two weapon fighting. It doesn't make any sense to me, but that's how it is.

Just to be clear, what you're saying is if you only have two hands and you're using a 2-handed weapon, you forget how to kick, but if you have four hands you can still hack with your two-hander and kick twice like Frank above?

[subway rat]

It seems like Tom knows what he is doing. I think you are right on. Frank, on the other hand...

If he is some kind of naturally 4-armed creature, then he probably gets 4 attacks to mix and match in the way you described. But if he is a regular humanoid with 2 arms like most playable races, he will have to get his two extra arms with the vestigial arm alchemist discovery. If that is the case, then it gets a little complicated. The main idea is that extra arms from the vestigial arm discovery don't give you any more attacks than you already have. They just give you another way to deliver those attacks.

Frank is a 3rd level alchemist (earliest you can get two vestigial arms) with a stabby thing in each of his 4 hands, he can:
stab you twice (with any two of his stabby things) OR
stab you, kick you OR
kick you twice

Now he drops two stabby things, he can:
stab you twice (once each with his two stabbies) OR
stab you, kick you OR
kick you twice OR
punch you, stab you OR
punch you, kick you OR
punch you twice

Notice how he still can only attack twice. Once he gets a high enough BAB, he could get one more attack in, using any of those options.

At 4th level Frank decides to get the Feral Mutagen discovery. Now he has two claws and a bite. These are additional attacks and stack with his two main attacks. He is not holding any weapons. He can use his hands as either claws or fists. He can now make 5 attacks with the following combinations:
kick, kick, bite, claw, claw OR
punch, kick, bite, claw, claw OR
punch, punch, bite, claw, claw OR
punch, punch, kick, claw, claw OR
punch, punch, kick, kick, bite OR
punch, punch, kick, kick, claw

Note that any time he uses weapon or unarmed attacks with natural attacks, all the natural attacks count as secondary attacks even if they normally would be primary.

Frank is now holding two stabby things with his non-clawed hands. Any time he attacks with manufactured weapons and natural weapons, his natural attacks all become secondary attacks. Also, he can swap out any type of attack with any other type of attack, as long as he only uses each "limb" once since these are not "iterative" attacks:
kick, kick, bite, claw, claw OR
stab, kick, bite, claw, claw OR
stab, stab, bite, claw, claw OR
stab, stab, kick, kick, bite OR
stab, stab, kick, bite, claw OR
stab, stab, kick, claw, claw

Notice that he can not do more than 5 attacks.

Now Frank holds a stabby thing in each of his 4 hands:
stab, stab, stab, stab, bite OR
stab, stab, stab, stab, kick OR
stab, stab, stab, kick, kick OR
stab, stab, stab, kick, bite OR
stab, stab, kick, kick, bite

Note that only one stab is primary, all the others are off hand attacks and take the appropriate penalty, and the bite is a secondary attack.

Frank's buddy George is a 1st level Tiefling with two claw attacks. These are two extra attacks for a total of 4 attacks. He can:
claw, claw, kick, kick OR
claw, punch, kick, kick OR
punch, punch, kick, kick OR
grab two stabby things and
stab, stab, kick, kick

George doesn't like to kick, so he gets two vestigial arms, but he still only gets 4 attacks. Now he can:
claw, claw, punch, punch

At 4th level George takes feral mutagen. That adds another 3 attacks for a total of 7 attacks. In addition to doing everything Frank can do with feral mutagen and two vestigial arms, George can:
bite, claw, claw, claw, claw (and waste two attacks. These are all primary natural attacks so there are no penalties.)
OR
bite, claw, claw, claw, claw, kick, kick (but all natural attacks become secondary attacks)

George is not satisfied. He wants MOAR natural attacks! At 5th level he gets the parasitic twin discovery. He also gets a ring of rat fangs for the extra bite attack it gives (or he could have been tengu). Now when he drinks his feral mutagen he applies the claws to his vestigial arms and the bite to his other face. He has 8 total attacks. He can:
bite, claw, claw, bite, claw, claw

Still not satisfied, he gets the tentacle discovery at 6th level. This does not grant an extra attack, so it's a good thing he had two unused attacks just laying around. It is also a secondary attack, but it has grab, so that's cool. He can:
bite, claw, claw, bite, claw, claw, tentacle

MOAR! At 7th level George takes a level of witch to get a prehensile hair secondary attack. Now he can:
bite, claw, claw, bite, claw, claw, tentacle, hair

At this point, Georges GM says he is no longer welcome at the table and calls him "cheese". Mean ol' GM.

Wait, what about wielding two great swords? Well, the consensus seems to be that you need a primary hand to wield a two-handed weapon, so since all your extra hands are off hands, you probably can not wield two two-handed weapons, or for that matter, two bows.

For more info, and to see the progression of thought on these subjects check out these posts:
two-weapon fighting
vestigial arm debate Pay attention to the discussion between Sean K. Raynolds and Nefreet.
attacks are interchangeable This is page 6 of the same discussion.

[Joe loves Rules]

I was intentionally leaving vestigial arms out of it, for they are a whole other can of worms. But I totally agree with what you said about them. :)

How is level one George able claw, punch, kick, kick? If that was not a mistype, I would like to hear the reasoning as that case would seem to shoot down the one-non natural per hand rule (if it's a real rule which is really what I'm trying to get at).

I am trying to get the general rules by which all (or at least more of) the special cases can be decided. The caps in particular.

So I think the caps are:
One non-natural attack per hand regardless of whether you actually use your hands to make those attacks?
(potentially plus some main hand attacks for high BA, plus some offhand for the later TWF feats, yada yada... I'm really looking for the baseline)

Plus whatever natural attacks you have provided you stick to one attack per limb? (so no bite and gore if you only have one head, no elbow unarmed and claw from the same arm, etc.)

[Valor Axeflail]

This always ends up being a giant can of worms, and these threads turn into thousand-post monstrosities that get locked. I strongly suggest you avoid a build like this, because it will only cause you and your fellow players (or GM) strife. If you do a simple search of this forum you'll see the debates for yourself.

The "unwritten rule" in Pathfinder is that if you are naturally a two-armed race, you have two "metaphorical hands". It doesn't matter if you sprout two vestigial arms or wish for ten, your "handedness" is set at two. No, I don't have a link for you, otherwise it wouldn't be an "unwritten rule". The Designers assumed this "unwritten rule" when they created the rules, and it is often insinuated when they post, or in the Greatsword/Armor Spikes FAQ. But it remains confusing as all hell.

A 1st level Tengu Monk can Claw/Claw/Bite/Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike. Substitute "Unarmed Strike" for "Blade Boot" if you wish, or "Armor Spikes/Blade Boot", whatever, so long as your arms and head don't factor into it. This takes advantage of your two "metaphorical hands", and then your natural attacks on top of it all.

Even an Awakened Giant Octopus Monk, at 1st level, could Bite/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacl e/Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike. It just can't do three Unarmed Strikes in the same round.

To further complicate the issue it is not entirely clear how naturally multi-armed races, like the Asura Beatific One, handle "metaphorical hands". The best practice would probably be to limit their handedness to the number of arms they are born with, but there truly is no limiting factor. A naturally four-armed creature could, in theory, perform a bewildering full attack of: Dagger/Dagger/Dagger/Dagger/Boulder Helm/Blade Boot/Blade Boot/Armor Spikes/(and probably more) because there is no "written rule" limiting their number of attacks to the number of hands they have.

Clear as mud, right?

If you want some Designer input, HERE is a wonderful 300+ post thread you can jump into. It's not 1000+ posts, but they're out there as well.

[graystone]

Joe loves Rules wrote:

graystone wrote:

Joe loves Rules wrote:

I maybe didn't ask clearly. It's this idea of arms being the limiting factor for non-natural attacks that is really at the heart of it.

If you keep up with the FAQ, there is some kind of unwritten rule that you only have a number of 'hands of effort' to use equal to the number of hands you actually have. (extra hands are an exception as they don't add to 'hands of effort'.)

What this means is if you're using an item that requires 2 hands of effort, you forget how to body block/kick/head-butt in two weapon fighting. It doesn't make any sense to me, but that's how it is.

Just to be clear, what you're saying is if you only have two hands and you're using a 2-handed weapon, you forget how to kick, but if you have four hands you can still hack with your two-hander and kick twice like Frank above?

Yes, the natural extension of the 'unwritten rule' would be that naturally 4 armed races like the Kasathas would indeed be able to make a two handed attack along with 2 one handed attacks or unarmed attacks.

[Imbicatus]

Goro, of Many Arms wrote:

A 1st level Tengu Monk can Claw/Claw/Bite/Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike. Substitute "Unarmed Strike" for "Blade Boot" if you wish, or "Armor Spikes/Blade Boot", whatever, so long as your arms and head don't factor into it. This takes advantage of your two "metaphorical hands", and then your natural attacks on top of it all.

Even an Awakened Giant Octopus Monk, at 1st level, could Bite/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacle/Tentacl e/Unarmed Strike/Unarmed Strike. It just can't do three Unarmed Strikes in the same round.

This isn't true if you are using Flurry for the two unarmed attacks, as Flurry of blows specifically disallows Natural Attacks.

However, if you were a 1st level Tengu Master of Many Styles with the Two-weapon Fighting feat, you use TWF instead of Flurry to get the US/US/Claw/Claw/Bite. This would be a terrible idea though as you would be at -2/-2/-7/-7/-7.

[Joe loves Rules]

So to recap... everyone agrees that the general rule is:
number of manufactured attacks = number of arms?

(vestigal arms being a special case I'd rather not get into in this thread)