Rogue (Knife Master / Scout) / Fighter (Two Weapon Warrior) Build Advice


Advice

Sczarni

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My Character Now.....

Delvin Vois (AKA “Raker”) Campaign (Ways of the Wicked) (+2 Skills, +1 Trait)
Male Human (Varisian) Rogue (Knife Master, Scout) 4 / Fighter (Two Weapon Warrior) 3
N.E Medium humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
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AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 42 (1d8/1d10)
Fort +5, Ref +10, Will +2
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Masterwork Kukri +9/+4 (1d4+3/18-20x2) and Masterwork Kukri +9 (1d4+1/18-20x2)
Thrown Daggers +13/+13 (1d4+3 19-20x2 10ft.)
Special Attacks Sneak Attack +2d6 ( D8’s with dagger types)
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Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 19, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8
Base Atk +6/+1; CMB +9; CMD +23
Feats Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Combat Expertise, Two Weapon Feint, Quick Draw, Weapon Focus (Kukri), Dazzling Display, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Feint
Traits Killer, Murderer(Campaign trait Ways of the Wicked), Strike First(Campaign trait Ways of the Wicked)
Skills Acrobatics +18, Bluff +11, Climb +11, Disable Device +14, Escape Artist +12, Intimidate +10, Knowledge(Dungeoneering) +10, Knowledge(Local) +10, Perception +9, Sleight of Hand +14 (+16 to conceal a light blade), Stealth +14, Use Magic Device +7,
Languages Common, Infernal, Dwarven
SQ hidden blade+2, Sneak Stab, Evasion, Bravery +1, Blade Sense +1, Defensive Flurry +1
Other Gear MasterworkMithral Chain Shirt, Master work Kukri x2, Rogue’s Kit, 8 Daggers, Belt of Tumbling, Cloak of Resistance +1

Rogue 1st , Fighter 2nd, Rogue 3rd etc.....
Feats,Talents and Spec:
1. Human bonus feat: Weapon fineese , Hidden Blade, Sneak Stab,two weapon fighting
2. Rogue talent: Combat Expertise
3. Feat: Two Weapon Feint, Rogue Talent: Quick Draw, Evasion
4. Weapon Focus (Kukri),Bravery +1
5. Dazzling Display, Blade Sense +1
6. Defensive Flurry +1, Sneak Attack +2d6
7. Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Rogue Talent; Improved Two weapon feint, Scouts charge
8. Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
9. Shatter Defenses, Sneak Atack +3d6
10. Twin Blades +1
11. Improved Critical(Kukri),Rogue Talent;Critical focus,Blade Sense +2
12. Bleeding Critical, Bravery +2
13. Greater Two Weapon fighting, Sneak Attack +4d6
14. Defensive Flurry +2
15. Step Up, Rogue Talent; Following Step, Skirmisher,
16. Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
17. Lunge, Blade Sense +3, Sneak Attack +5d6
18. Twin Blades +2, Double Strike
19. Improved Dirty Trick (For Role Playing Flavor), Rogue Talent; Entanglement of Blades
20. Ouick Dirty Tricks (Again for Flavor), Bravery +3

Please Be Kind...... Thanks


As a rogue, knifemaster, your sneak attacks do +d4 damage or +d8 with dagger types.

After about 8th level, you're going to be too dang squishy if you stay in melee range to get the benefit of TWF. With the Scout archetype, I think I'd look more for the in and out fighting of Spring Attack. This would give you your sneak attack damage and help your survivability.

Quick Draw as a feat only really helps you in a surprise round...unless your gm allows it to be used for other items besides weapons. Grab something else.

Your WIS 8 is going to hurt. You have a negative to your poor Will saves combined with some very important skills tied to wisdom.

Shadow Lodge

Overall looks pretty good. I would drop Dazzling Display and shatter defense for dodge, toughness, or other defensive abilities.


MarsVolta_84 wrote:

Rogue 1st , Fighter 2nd, Rogue 3rd etc.....

Feats,Talents and Spec:
1. Human bonus feat: Weapon fineese , Hidden Blade, Sneak Stab,two weapon fighting
2. Rogue talent: Combat Expertise
3. Feat: Two Weapon Feint, Rogue Talent: Quick Draw, Evasion
4. Weapon Focus (Kukri),Bravery +1
5. Dazzling Display, Blade Sense +1
6. Defensive Flurry +1, Sneak Attack +2d6
7. Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Rogue Talent; Improved Two weapon feint, Scouts charge
8. Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
9. Shatter Defenses, Sneak Atack +3d6
10. Twin Blades +1
11. Improved Critical(Kukri),Rogue Talent;Critical focus,Blade Sense +2
12. Bleeding Critical, Bravery +2
13. Greater Two Weapon fighting, Sneak Attack +4d6
14. Defensive Flurry +2
15. Step Up, Rogue Talent; Following Step, Skirmisher,
16. Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
17. Lunge, Blade Sense +3, Sneak Attack +5d6
18. Twin Blades +2, Double Strike
19. Improved Dirty Trick (For Role Playing Flavor), Rogue Talent; Entanglement of Blades
20. Ouick Dirty Tricks (Again for Flavor), Bravery +3

This is messy and I think there are mistakes in there. I am assuming you intend to take all odd levels as Rogue and all even ones as Fighter. Cleaning it up and only listing feats and rogue talents it looks more like this:

1. Weapon Finesse, Two Weapon Fighting
2. Combat Expertise
3. Two Weapon Feint, Quick Draw
4. Weapon Focus (Kukri)
5. Dazzling Display
6.
7. Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Feint
8. Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
9. Shatter Defenses
10.
11. Improved Critical (Kukri), Critical Focus
12. Bleeding Critical
13. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
14.
15. Step Up, Following Step,
16. Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
17. Lunge
18.
19. Improved Dirty Trick, Entanglement of Blades
20. Quick Dirty Trick

Which runs into the problem of not being legal, because you can only take the rogue talent Combat Trick once. You appear to have taken it at levels 3, 7, 11, and 15.

I suggest a progression more like this, both because it is legal and because it is effective.

1. Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
2. Combat Expertise
3. Gang Up, Weapon Focus (Kukri) [from Weapon Training]
4. Dazzling Display
5. Power Attack
6.
7. Cornugon Smash, Improved Two Weapon Fighting [from Combat Trick]
8. Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
9. Shatter Defenses
10.
11. Improved Critical (Kukri), Pressure Points [from Ninja Trick]
12. Critical Focus
13. Bleeding Critical
14.
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Sneaky Maneuver
16. Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
17. Improved Dirty Trick
18.
19. Greater Dirty Trick, Entanglement of Blades
20. Dirty Trick Master


If you're not going past level 9 in Fighter, Two Weapon Warrior is not a good archetype. For example, it trades out weapon training (+1 attack and damage anytime you use the weapon) for a bonus only when you're full attacking. That's only useful if you specifically plan to use weapons from multiple groups (which as a Knife Master, you're not going to do anyway). The main benefits of Two Weapon Warrior kick in at level 9 and up.

If you plan to take Combat Expertise anyway, switch your Fighter archetype to Lore Warden: you get Combat Expertise for free at 2nd level, all knowledge skills as class skills and 2 bonus skill points for Int based skills per level (and you're going to want to know whether you can sneak attack that monster...).

Alternatively, if you know you're always going to wield the kukris, take the Weapon Master archetype, so you get Weapon Training at 3rd level. You'll also want to take a 4th fighter level for Weapon Specialization. 4 levels of Weapon Master )plus Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization) gives you a total of +2 attack and +3 damage on every hit. Pick up Gloves of Dueling for an extra +2 attack/damage.

Power Attack is a poor feat choice for TWF: you take the full penalty on all attacks but only get half the bonus on your off hand. If your strength is 16 or higher, take Double Slice. Otherwise, take Butterfly's Sting to pass off your critical hits to an ally.

Also, double check your requirements for Rogue talent Combat Trick. I believe you still have to meet the prerequisites for the feat, which means you can't take Improved TWF until BAB 8...

(Sorry--this is a bit rushed cause work is starting up. My rogue/fighter TWF is at the end of her career, and I've learned a lot from her mistakes...)


@Gwen Smith I know that Power Attack is not doing the build any favors on its own, the only reason you ever Power Attack is to trigger Cornugon Smash to trigger Shatter Defenses.

I played a battle oracle who went the Dazzling Display route and I learned that Cornugon Smash is the key feat to making it all work. It is a huge pain to have to use an action to demoralize. Cornugon Smash lets you attach demoralize checks as riders on power attacks. So on the first attack you would have been better off with Butterfly's Sting, but if you can start within 5 ft of a shaken opponent with a nasty full attack build like this...

I agree that Two Weapon Warrior and to some extent Knife Master are less powerful archetypes. Not everyone can be a Lore Warden/Ninja though and I was trying to clean up the OPs build without changing too much of it.


Gregory Connolly wrote:

@Gwen Smith I know that Power Attack is not doing the build any favors on its own, the only reason you ever Power Attack is to trigger Cornugon Smash to trigger Shatter Defenses.

I played a battle oracle who went the Dazzling Display route and I learned that Cornugon Smash is the key feat to making it all work. It is a huge pain to have to use an action to demoralize. Cornugon Smash lets you attach demoralize checks as riders on power attacks. So on the first attack you would have been better off with Butterfly's Sting, but if you can start within 5 ft of a shaken opponent with a nasty full attack build like this...

Ah, I missed that part.

Have you tried using Enforcer to demoralize as a free action? You have to use non-lethal damage for your first attack, but it lasts "as many rounds as you do damage". I've been wanting to try out Enforcer combined with the Cruel weapon enhancement, but I haven't had the opportunity yet.

Gregory Connolly wrote:
I agree that Two Weapon Warrior and to some extent Knife Master are less powerful archetypes. Not everyone can be a Lore Warden/Ninja though and I was trying to clean up the OPs build without changing too much of it.

Two Weapon Warrior was actually detrimental to my TWF: I trained out of it into a plain old fighter, and immediately became much more effective. The problem is that you trade out a bunch of useful stuff at lower levels for the ability to use two one-handed weapons and effectively get pounce at higher levels. If you're not going to make it to those higher levels, you've just traded out a bunch of useful stuff.

Weapon Training is one of the best fighter class features. It's the equivalent of a +1 weapon that automatically scales with levels and stacks with everything; then Gloves of Dueling kicks it up another +2--that's a huge impact on your DPR.

With a straight kukri build, I would probably go with Weapon Master or plain fighter. For a maneuver build, Lore Warden is really hard to beat--free Combat Expertise and +2 CMB/CMD is sweet--and you don't HAVE to train all those knowledge skills (any Int skill will do).

So far, the best choice I've found to maximize sneak attack is the Gang Up feat. Unless you only have one other melee fighter in your party, Gang Up lets you get sneak attack most of the time.

For feint builds, I like Improved Feint/Greater Feint better than Two-Weapon Feint. You can use Improved Feint on one round and attack with the benefit on the next round, so you have a little more flexibility, and you don't take a -2 penalty on your attack roll. With Two Weapon Feint, you have to be able to full attack with both weapons and then choose not to take the attack. If your average weapon damage is greater than your average sneak attack damage, you're better off just taking your second attack without sneak attack damage.

Sczarni

How about the Moblie Fighter Archtype with Knife Master / Scout?

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