| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I could not find a thread that was conclusive, nor could I find a FAQ. Can someone summarize the current thinking, if this is not a closed issue?
1. Does it require the cleave feat to work?
2. Does it give you the cleave feat?
3. Does it do neither, but just trigger off a hit?
4. Does it let you attack twice when you cleave?
5. Does it stack with Great Cleave?
1) Yes.
2) No.
3) It allows you to hit an additional target if you hit with a cleave.
4) It allows you to attack three times. First target. Then a second target if the first was hit. Then a third target if the second was hit.
5) No. Great Cleave doesnt stack with cleave either, it gives you another option in combat (which is superior to cleave).
5b) Even if it stacked, the bonus from Great Cleave is superior and would make the Mighty Cleaving irrelevant.
1) Yes.
2) No.
3) It allows you to hit an additional target if you hit with a cleave.
4) It allows you to attack three times. First target. Then a second target if the first was hit. Then a third target if the second was hit.
5) No. Great Cleave doesnt stack with cleave either, it gives you another option in combat (which is superior to cleave).
5b) Even if it stacked, the bonus from Great Cleave is superior and would make the Mighty Cleaving irrelevant.
1) Correct. It says "A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat"
2) Correct. It does not give you the Cleave feat.
3) Correct. If, and only if, you are using the Cleave feat you get to attack an additional target if you hit.
4) Partially Correct - " A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach." Only the first attack must hit to get both additional attacks at any creature that is adjacent to the first and in reach. You do NOT have to hit with the second attack to get the third.
5a) Incorrect. The only restriction is "This additional attack cannot be against the first foe." If the first attack hits the wielder can attack two more times against any foe(s) adjacent to the first and in reach.
5b) Partially Correct. You cannot use Might Cleaving and Great Cleave at the same time but great cleave only allows you to hit each additional target once. Mighty Cleaving will allow you to target the second foe twice which may be desirable in some circumstances. So in some situations you will may want to use the Cleave feat with a Mighty Cleaving weapon instead if Great Cleave.
Edit: I misread the response to 5a. Shadowkras was correct.
4) Partially Correct - " A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach." Only the first attack must hit to get both additional attacks at any creature that is adjacent to the first and in reach. You do NOT have to hit with the second attack to get the third.
I do not believe that this is RAI. It essentially grants the use of the cleave feat to a individual who does not have it when wielding the weapon with the enchantment.
I do not believe that it stacks with the feat if the wielder possesses both. As it would essentially allow for two standard actions in a single round. Action economy says no.
If someone can point out a second example for an enchantment that grants the use of a feat that stacks with a feat that requires the use of a standard action in a round, I'm willing to reconsider.
@OldSchool
Yeah i realized the mistake after i had posted, but it didnt seem right as your weapon would have to swing backwards after hitting the second target, unless its a reach weapon. I believe the intent of the effect was to make "badass axes" that cleave enemies in the battlefield.
Let me show you:
C A B
. X
You are X, you attack A with cleave, then strike at B, and then would have to strike C swinging your axe towards A again (which wont hit because the mechanics wont allow it). You get the idea.
What i had in mind was along the lines of:
A B
X C
@Quintain
The item would be worthless as a "Mighty Cleaver" if it gave the feat to the wielder, what benefit would be there if the wielder already has cleave? None.
There are a bunch of items that grant passive feats or class abilities, and they are all similar to this one. Though i cant find one that grants an active feat.
EDIT
On a second though, @Quintain.
Either by granting an extra attack when using cleave, or granting the cleave feat, both ways will grant action economy in the form of one extra attack to the wielder. I dont see how they are different in that regard.
The item would be worthless as a "Mighty Cleaver" if it gave the feat to the wielder, what benefit would be there if the wielder already has cleave? None.
Yep, no benefit. That doesn't disprove anything, imo. It's is just a +1 enchantment. There are plenty of enchantments that are potentially useless in certain circumstances.
I think a +1 enchantment giving essentially what amounts to a second standard action (which is required in order to do what you are describing) is dispositive barring specific text to the contrary.
Either by granting an extra attack when using cleave, or granting the cleave feat, both ways will grant action economy in the form of one extra attack to the wielder. I dont see how they are different in that regard.
It's not just an extra attack. It is an extra standard action -- that is what cleave requires in order to make that attack.
4) Partially Correct - " A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach." Only the first attack must hit to get both additional attacks at any creature that is adjacent to the first and in reach. You do NOT have to hit with the second attack to get the third.
I do not believe that this is RAI. It essentially grants the use of the cleave feat to a individual who does not have it when wielding the weapon with the enchantment.
I do not believe that it stacks with the feat if the wielder possesses both. As it would essentially allow for two standard actions in a single round. Action economy says no.
If someone can point out a second example for an enchantment that grants the use of a feat that stacks with a feat that requires the use of a standard action in a round, I'm willing to reconsider.
Nothing in the description supports this. It is not granting the cleave feat at all. It is enhancing the cleave feat of the wielder. If the wielder does not have the cleave feat he cannot use the ability.
A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach. This additional attack cannot be against the first foe. Only melee weapons can be mighty cleaving weapons.
Moderate evocation; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, divine power; Price +1 bonus.
It does NOT say it allows the wielder to use the Cleave feat. It says a wielder that is doing so, meaning wielder already possesses the Cleave feat and is using it, can get the benefit of the weapon's ability.
Edit: BTW the idea that this feat gives you Cleave is the same sort of reasoning that lead to the idea that Tail Terror gives you a tail. The fact that a feat or ability says that you use [insert something] does not mean you get the [insert something] from the feat or ability. It always means that if you have [insert something] ALREADY you get the benefit of the feat or ability.
It's not just an extra attack. It is an extra standard action -- that is what cleave requires in order to make that attack.
No, its not a standard action. You cant move with it, you cant cast a spell with it, you cant drink a potion with it.
You can only make a third attack when using Cleave, against another adjacent target, you cant even attack the first target again.
The ability works only on specific conditions:
1) Wielder must have cleave;
2) Wielder must be fighting at least three enemies;
3) Second and third enemies must be adjacent to the first.
Its not much different than a Bane weapon really.
It's not just an extra attack. It is an extra standard action -- that is what cleave requires in order to make that attack.No, its not a standard action. You cant move with it, you cant cast a spell with it, you cant drink a potion with it.
You can only make a third attack when using Cleave, against another adjacent target, you cant even attack the first target again.
The ability works only on specific conditions:
1) Wielder must have cleave;
2) Wielder must be fighting at least three enemies;
3) Second and third enemies must be adjacent to the first.Its not much different than a Bane weapon really.
I agree with everything except step 2. Only the first enemy cannot be hit twice. So you can be fighting only two enemies and hit the second one twice.
A mighty cleaving weapon allows a wielder using the Cleave feat to make one additional attack if the first attack hits, as long as the next foe is adjacent to the first and also within reach. This additional attack cannot be against the first foe. Only melee weapons can be mighty cleaving weapons.
If the first attack hits you get your normal Cleave attack which lets you hit a foe adjacent to your first foe within reach that can't be the first foe and you also get the additional mighty cleaving attack which is also against a foe adjacent to your first foe within reach that can't be the first foe. The second foe is a foe adjacent to your first foe within reach that is not the first foe and so both of these attacks can target him.
Actually, I stand corrected. I see where it says that the wielder has the Cleave feat and gains an extra attack when using a standard action to make the Cleave attack.