Dwarf paladin?

[zauriel56]

How does one build a dwarf paladin in terms of ability scores? I was thinking
Str- 14
Dex- 14
Con- 12
Int- 8
Wis- 12
Cha- 14

I want to make a guy virtually immune to enemy magic. I wanted to get divine grace, steel soul, and glory of old to do this. With current stats I would have a +11 to saves against spells, and spell-like abilities that target fort and will saves, and +9 to reflex saves.

I would take lightning reflexes at 3rd, and probably go straight fighter after 2nd level. I'm still working on how to pull aggro, probably will take antagonize and power attack but not sure what else I'll do.

I'll focus on Diplomacy, Intimidate, and sense motive for skills.

Wielding a dwarven waraxe and a heavy shield (tower shield once i get fighter levels)

[DrDeth]

Never dump Int. I'd have a DEX of 12, instead.

Are those scores before or after racial? CON seems low.

lightning reflexes is a waste here. Of the three saves, this is least important to you.

[zauriel56]

I messed up on stats, I changed them so now its
str- 14
dex- 14
con- 14
int- 10
wis- 10
cha- 14
I hate dumping dex as it also applies to AC and reflex saves.

[DrDeth]

zauriel56 wrote:

I messed up on stats, I changed them so now its

str- 14
dex- 14
con- 14
int- 10
wis- 10
cha- 14
I hate dumping dex as it also applies to AC and reflex saves.

Have a DEX of 12 isn't "dumping". AC is already a strong point. Your saves are already going to be great, and reflex is by far the least important, as you'll have lots of HP.

Few bad guys use the Dazing Metamagic feat.

Those 3 pts will allow you to boost your CHA to 15, and then throw a point in Wis (due to Wis drain attacks). Once you get to 4th, your CHA becomes 16, then you get another +1 to all three saves. Plus more Lay on Hands, etc.

[Deadmanwalking]

What point buy are you using? Because that doesn't look like either 15 or 20.

At 20 point-buy I'd do the following:

Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 9 Cha 14

You could also consider the Stonelord Paladin archetype. It lets you dump Cha a fair bit, though it basically plays as a completely different class.

[nate lange]

honestly, i'd probably start with a lower Cha... i know pallies get a lot of mileage from Cha (and that divine grace is a big part of this whole build), but with the racial -2 you're investing a lot of points for that 14... i'd consider starting with like a 12-13 and putting all your leveling points into it (along with buying the best Cha boosting items you can find).

[darth_borehd]

I disagree. Charisma is so important for paladins, I would drop the con down to 12 before I lose any charisma.

[Alexandros Satorum]

I agree with Deadmanwalking´s stat array. You could even drop wisdom to 7 (I would then rise the int for mor skills).

With steel sould and divine grace you should have a really solid set of saves.

[DrDeth]

I have seen bad things happen with low WIS. Cruddy Perception, bad Sense Motive, etc. WIS drain attacks.

Certain, the Saves will be good, but even so Will save is very critical for this build, since later the levels of Fighter have a poor Will save.

[Alexandros Satorum]

Ok, I had not read the fighter levels. yeah, no wis 7.

[Malag]

@Zauriel56

There is dwarven archetype "Stonelord" paladin I believe. It's not based around Cha since dwarfs receive -2 to Cha from race.

Check it out.

[Deadmanwalking]

Alexandros Satorum wrote:

I agree with Deadmanwalking´s stat array. You could even drop wisdom to 7 (I would then rise the int for mor skills).

Uh...I did. That's post racial stat mods, and Dwarves get +2 Wis.

On a separate note, I'd go straight Paladin, not take Fighter levels. Paladin is just a better class in so many ways.

[ezrider23]

I might be tempted to reduce my CON a smidge also. Go..
15/12/11+2/10/10+2/16-2 (15/12/13/10/12/14) and then boost my STR @4 and CON @8. Boost your Charisma with items as well as STR/CON. Probably wouldn't invest in Reflexes.

Quicky Build:

Dwarfy Paladin
Dwarf Paladin 1
LG Medium humanoid (dwarf)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +1
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +2 shield, +1 Dex)
hp 11 (1d10+1)
Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +3; +2 vs. poison, +4 vs. spells and spell-like abilities, +1 trait bonus vs. spells, spell-like abilities, and poison
Defensive Abilities defensive training (+4 dodge bonus to AC vs. giants)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 20 ft.
Melee heavy shield bash +3 (1d4+2) and
. . dwarven waraxe +3 (1d10+2/×3) and
. . gauntlet (from armor) +3 (1d3+2) and
. . unarmed strike +3 (1d3+2 nonlethal)
Special Attacks +1 on attack rolls against goblinoid and orc humanoids, smite evil
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 1st; concentration +3)
. . At will—detect evil
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 14
Base Atk +1; CMB +3; CMD 14 (18 vs. bull rush, 18 vs. trip)
Feats Steel Soul
Traits glory of old, omen
Skills Diplomacy +6, Intimidate +7, Sense Motive +5
Languages Common, Dwarven
SQ aura of good
Other Gear four-mirror, heavy steel shield, dwarven waraxe, 55 gp
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
--------------------
Omen (1/day) - 0/1
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) - 0/1
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Aura of Good (Ex) The paladin has an Aura of Good with power equal to her class level.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs monsters of the Giant subtype.
Detect Evil (At will) (Sp) You can use detect evil at will (as the spell).
Glory of Old You receive a +1 trait bonus on saving throws against spells, spell-like abilities, and poison.
Hatred +1 Gain a racial bonus to attacks vs Goblinoids/Orcs.
Omen (1/day) As a swift action, Demoralize an opponent.
Smite Evil (1/day) (Su) +2 to hit, +1 to damage, +2 deflection bonus to AC when used.
Steel Soul Hardy's save vs. spells and spell-like abilities becomes +4

And mostly not dip fighter. Straight Pally is a better overall choice.

[Balgin]

zauriel56 wrote:

I'm still working on how to pull aggro, probably will take antagonize and power attack but not sure what else I'll do.

Step up, stand still, following step, step up and strike, dazzling display, saving shield, flaking foil, bodyguard.... skill focus in diplomacy and/or intimidate to get extra mileage out of antagonise.....*

Combat manoeuvres are good too. Drag, reposition, disarm, trip etc. The usual array. It's also worth noting that drag and reposition only provoke attacks from the victim (and the victim of a drag does not provoke an attacks of opportunity for involuntary movement unless you invest about three feats into it). So sometimes using drags and repositions to save badly wounded or fragile allies from danger is really helpful.

*Obviously you can't have anything. I'm just offering up a few more tanky feat suggestions there.

Quote:

I wanted to get divine grace, steel soul, and glory of old to do this.

Good choice but I think you might be missing a trick there. Divine grace, steel soul and glory of old (often refered to as "Dwarf plus one!") are rather useful but I feel there's a fourth part of that combination which makes it even more rediculous. I can't remember what it is but I'm leaning towards ironguts, ironhide or heroic recovery (followed by heroic defiance).

Whatever it is it currently escapes me. You are putting all your eggs in one basket so be careful. I'd agree that the original dexterity of 14 was a bit high. For this kind of build the only reason you'd need it to be above a 12 (short of wanting it higher) would be to take dodge and move into stalwart defender later on. That being said the constitution looks about 4 points too low as well :p. You can afford a slightly lower charisma because adding a point at level 4 and then another at level 8 will easily offset the racial -2 more than dumping points in that could better go elsewhere.

That is if you're doing points buy. If you rolled those ability scores then good on you :).

[Balgin]

Malag wrote:

@Zauriel56

There is dwarven archetype "Stonelord" paladin I believe. It's not based around Cha since dwarfs receive -2 to Cha from race.

Check it out.

Unfortunately it replaces divine grace which he really wants for the magic resistance. It might be tempting to see how a stonelord with the magic resistant alternate racial trait would be like as opposed to one with Glory Of Old (quite possibly the best dwarven trait ever written).

[Balgin]

zauriel56 wrote:

I hate dumping dex as it also applies to AC and reflex saves.

Okay, let's see....

If you fail a fortitude save you get ill, or paralised, or turned to stone or poisoned or something worse.

If you fail a reflex save you take a bit more damage (you have lots of hit points with those big d10's every level). Sometimes you might be temporarily inconvenienced, stuck in a web or something.

If you fail a willpower save bad things happen. Often these bad things involve you inflicting serious bodily harm upon or even slaying your less martial party members.

Personally I'd consider willpower to be your second highest priority as a fighter or paladin when it comes to saves (and that's only because you're going to have a pretty good fortitude save with either of those classes). You can afford to prioritise reflex saves a bit less as being stuck doesn't make you do damage to your allies.

So what else does dexterity do? It helps with ranged attacks, armour class, initiative, some skills....

Dex for armour class? If you're considering heavy armour (as many martial classes do) you won't need a very high dexterity. Dex to initiative? Well there's this lovely feat in the Inner Sea World Guide called Noble Scion, take the Noble Scion of War variant to add your charisma to initiative instead of dexteiry. This feat must be taken at 1st level. It's not an optimal feat for a dwarf but if you want high charisma for paladin stuff anyway then Noble Scion of War might be the way to go if you are worried about not having a high initiative roll on the first round of combat. After the first round it doesn't really matter who went first so much any more.

[Sir Thugsalot]

zauriel56 wrote:

How does one build a dwarf paladin in terms of ability scores? I was thinking

Str- 14
Dex- 14
Con- 12
Int- 8
Wis- 12
Cha- 14

First rule of point-buy is don't build a race/class combination in which the race's strengths and weaknesses are precisely opposite the class' prime stat and dump stat. The build above is butchering *half* of it build points getting a measly 16>14 in charisma whereas, say, a halfling pally buys a 15>17 for only 8pts and dumps WIS to 7 to pick up 4pts, and has a racial save to off-set.

Quote:

I want to make a guy virtually immune to enemy magic.

Then you want a dwarf monk, not a dwarf paladin -- because get monks get spell-resistance.

STR:15 (all bumps)
DEX:14
CON+16
INT:12
WIS+16
CHA-05

[reinar]

str- 15
dex- 10
con- 15 (becomes 17)
int- 10
wis- 8 (becomes 10)
cha- 17 (becomes 15)
dwarf paladin build
thoughts?
mummy's mask adventure path

[calagnar]

First and for most Cha base paladin is a trap. Yes paladins need cha but they need it just as much as a battle oracle. That is just enough to do some good and focus on Str or Dex. I have came across more people that fell in to the trap. They where unhappy with their paladin. Second paladin is a good class but it's not a fighter. You have very few feet's chose wisely. Steel Soul is a good feet however it can be over kill for a dwarf paladin.

Not a pure paladin. My PFSP Dwarf at level 8 Paladin3 Rogue3 Fighter Lore Warden2 has the following saves.
Fort 14 Ref 8 Will 7 (Hardy + Glory of Old +3 save vs. spells.)
Str21 (Base17 + 2 level +2 item) Dex11 Con16 Int10 Wis9 Cha14 (Base12 +2 item)
That's more then enough to handle most saves at level. Combined with evasion and using light armor. Most area effect spells have not affected him. The few times their have been a none spell will save hurt.
Notice I did take enough level in paladin to make me immune to mummy's curse and fear aura.
The damage out put is normal against all monsters is better. Smite Damage is higher on a full paladin. However it dose not compare to total damage out. With the limited smite per day and needing them to be evil to deal damage. Charisma focused paladin is set for damage problems.

This character build was done years ago in D&D 3.5. Pathfinder paladins are much better now. However I restarted the same build for PFSP. It has proven to be as resilient and versatile as it was in 3.5.

[Deadmanwalking]

reinar wrote:

str- 15

dex- 10
con- 15 (becomes 17)
int- 10
wis- 8 (becomes 10)
cha- 17 (becomes 15)
dwarf paladin build
thoughts?
mummy's mask adventure path

That's more Charisma than you really need, and too many odd scores (which are, if you recall, useless in and of themselves).

I'd go with:

Str- 16
Dex- 10
Con- 17
Int- 10
Wis- 10
Cha- 14

And might drop Wis to 9 and raise Dex or Int to 12.

Or (as I suggested above something lie a year ago) you could go Stonelord if you're going Paladin for flavor rather than mechanics, and could take significantly less Charisma in that case.

[Imbicatus]

Stonelord can dump CHA down to 5 without worry. All CHA dependent abilities are replaced except LoH, which just means you have less Lay on Hands per day.