On the topic of managers for buildings (Ultimate Campaign p88): I simply cannot find any place where a system is described for determining the daily wage of a manager. Are the wages given for the examples simply arbitrary, or is there some rhyme or reason to them, from which one can extrapolate or reverse-engineer appropriate wages for custom-built managerial NPCs?
As is so often the case, I feel like I'm missing something obvious, somewhere, but I'll gladly kick myself and be thankful for it if someone has an explanation or some advice. I looked around and couldn't find where someone else had asked the question, nor any official UC errata, so perhaps this will help others who consistently use the downtime system, as well.
Is there a particular Managerial job you are looking for that isn't already covered in that extensive, almost 2-page list? IN any case, the range of wage is only varied from 2-5 gp/day, and is obviously based on education level required for the job.
In this case, it doesn't have anything to do with the job that the manager would be fulfilling, but rather the scale of the NPC. The text describes managers as "typically a 3rd-level character with 3 ranks in the appropriate skills and the basic NPC ability score array" (UC p88), but nothing beyond the examples given is covered, e.g., NPCs of 1st level or of 7th level, etc.
Whether or not it makes sense to have someone as high as 4th+ or as low as 1st running your business for you is moot with reference to the question. I just want to know if there's a specific way that the wages for managers are figured so that, in the instance a PC wants to hire a manager who is not 3rd level, I know what the NPC should be paid (since it only makes sense that lower-level characters would make less, and higher-level ones would earn more).
You're not paying them for their capability, but for the job they are doing. Running such and such business while you're away warrants a pay of 2-5gp/day, regardless of who is doing it. There's not really any mechanics to benefit from a 6th level npc vs a 3rd level.
I'd suggest that's a bit of an arbitrary assumption, on the basis that other wages are set on a sliding scale (Craft/Profession/hired casting/etc.). Also, there is a benefit to having varied-level NPCs:
This indicates the main skills the manager has ranks in, allowing you or the GM to make skill checks for the manager if an event or encounter requires it.
So, in situations like random downtime events (which can occur when PCs aren't around), it's possible for a manager's skill checks to matter.
Regardless, it's important to the players in my game, so I'm trying to get the question answered, if there's any reasonable answer to be found. I'd rather go with the guidelines the developers used to generate the numbers given in the book, as examples, if there are such, rather than make my own ruling. Can anyone point out or help guess what those might be?
I think I'll pull up a spreadsheet, later, but...
Each manager has 4 skills. There seems to be an increase in wage for skills that are not Knowledge, Craft, Profession or Social (Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Intimidate). Also, the more PC classes that are mentioned in the manager description, the higher the wage seems to be.
I'll take a stab at crunching some numbers to get a guideline when I can get to my computer, later.
That sounds like it could be a real help. I'll look forward to your results!
The problem being, when discussing skill checks, that the Ability Scores, which aren't called out at all, would have as much impact as the difference between lvl 3 and lvl 7. In short, everything about the downtime system (and then the Kingdom Building system as well) is designed to be very abstract. Looking to add more complication to it is just going to throw off other less complicated sections.
If Downtime was a game on it's own, an economic/business simulation, then sure, complicate it as you will - but the reality is, when dealing with the downtime system, the more complicated you make it, the more time you are one-on-one with the GM taking care of your personal business while the other party members are hanging out waiting for their downtime turns, or just waiting to get back to the action. Look, I love the downtime system, but what I love about it is its simplicity.
If you really want to figure out an accurate wage for a manager, you would be best off rolling up the actual NPC, and comparing what he COULD be making actually working his profession checks on his own, because that is what your wage is going to have to compete with.
The problem being, when discussing skill checks, that the Ability Scores, which aren't called out at all, would have as much impact as the difference between lvl 3 and lvl 7.
As I quoted above, "typical" NPC managers use the basic ability score array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, and 8), so you're only talking about a possible range of 3 (+2 to -1), in most cases. However, since the material also explicitly says that even loyal followers and cohorts (from the Leadership feat) still need to be paid a wage if they're working as managers, the question is still relevant, because those levels, skills, etc. can vary greatly. Right now, I'm assuming it mostly has to do with the math for the Profession skill...
Fortunately for my players, my game is online and no one really has to wait on anyone else when doing downtime rolls for business. In any case, as I believe I indicated above, I'm not really exploring whether particular aspects of the downtime system—or further investigation of those aspects—are good or bad, I'm just looking to get my math question answered. My goal isn't to complicate the uncomplicated, it's to figure out how to deal with a small but specific hole the designers left in the material.
CraziFuzzy, you may have sparked something when you mentioned ability scores. At the very least, I believe it helps to think about it.
A Profession check can be used to earn gp per week equal to half the check result; so, dividing it again by 5 gets you your earnings per day. Or, as described in the downtime rules, you can simply divide the result by 10 (assuming weekends off/5-day workweek).
If the typical NPC manager is 3rd level, "with 3 ranks in the appropriate skills and the basic NPC ability score array [...], giving the manager a +7 or +8 for class skills," then that means the average check result for such a character is going to be around 18 or so (I'm favoring the high end). 18 / 10 = 1.8, or 1gp 8sp per day, if they take 10. That's significantly below the wages for a lot of the examples given in UC; even if you assume a result of a natural 20 on every check and Skill Focus in the relevant skill, you're still only looking at about 3gp per day of dedicated work as a manager for this hypothetical NPC, and we're already into stretching quite a bit.
So: I was sort of thinking, for a moment, that it might be something along the lines of using the Profession skill as a guideline, and just substituting the most appropriate skill, e.g., using the same math for an abbot, but making a Knowledge (religion) check, instead, to determine the wage. Obviously, though, that doesn't work, so it must be something else. It still looks, right now, like the numbers are arbitrary, as if they just said, "Oh, about this; that seems right-ish."
Darn. :( I hoped for a second, there, that I'd had an epiphany, especially since I always feel like I'm overlooking the obvious, when it comes to stuff like this. Ah, well.
It's definitely not obvious. Just like the cost for rooms and their resultant bonuses aren't obvious, either (though I did manage to show that all of the bonuses are equivalent to each other, so that having +12 gp should cost the same as +4 to gp, Goods and Influence. It's the price side of the equation that's complex).
Like I said, they chose things based on simplicity, not necessarily cohesiveness with normal gameplay rules. That said, a 3rd level NPC would also have 2 feats, that, if applied towards the profession, would provide more boosts. (Prodigy feat provides +2 to two different Craft/Perform or Profession skills). There are also feats that boost other important managerial skills (Persuasive, Alertness, etc)
Regarding the wages being higher than just the skill earning, keep in mind you aren't hiring a blacksmith to run your smithy, you're hiring a person to manage your smithy, that knows enough about the craft to do so effectively. This means not JUST the craft/profession skill goes into the worth of the manager. There are a ton of other characteristics required to properly manage a business.
In the end, though, all this math and theory crafting is just trying to justify numbers that were likely just made up, so this doesn't really amount to much.
We make the NPC make a profession check, and that was the amount that was charged for the week.
A character with a profession (inn keeper) that makes a 20 for the week charges 10 gp for the week. (that's 1 gp per day)
Per the SRD
Check: You can earn half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work.
Untrained: Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.
My store keep in skull and shackles is my retired ships cook / fisherman, a human rogue 6.
Profession (Fisherman) : 6 ranks, wisdom +2, class skill +3, +3 Heart of the fields, +2 artisan tools. Total skill with the rod a +16.
I remember long ago in some 3.5 splat book they had a formula for fishing, DC = 20+CR+Size Modifier to attract it. Then an opposed grapple check (or CMD check in pathfinder) using profession (Fisherman) instead of using the character's base attack bonus. If successful, the monster gains the grappled condition, and if you get it the second round, it is pinned.
Kraken DC to attract is a DC : 42.
Kraken DC for catching is a 44.
A variant pay scale that we use in our games is Profession check x 10 gp per week.
Spent a while (a couple of hours) crunching numbers.
Conclusion: it has nothing to do with the skills the manager brings.
My current working hypothesis is that it has to do with the role the manager does. Service roles tend to be at 3gp, people who make you money are 4gp. High risk roles get a bump. Modify as feels appropriate.
Interesting. How would you suggest inflating the wage for higher-level characters, then? It doesn't seem quite right to pay a high-level heroic NPC, like a cohort, a pittance to stand around when they could earn many times that amount on a single low-EL outing. Perhaps just default to a regular skill check after a certain level?
honestly, I wouldn't even try to tie a higher level character (PC or NPC) to managing a business. There are plenty more appropriate employees available. Why shoehorn an epic hero into a role that doesn't fit him?
Even after my PC's reach a high enough level for it to no longer make sense, I see no reason for them to take direct action in the downtime businesses, and likely move over to kingdom builder level management.
Really, I think the only important consideration is that's just what some players want to do. Everybody's different when it comes to what they're looking for in a game.
If your players are that dead set on using a higher level NPC for a management role, pick the closest existing role for the job, divide the wage by 3 and multiply by the level of the character, rounding to the nearest gp. If that's too low (even a 20th level character would only cost at most 35 gp per day), divide base wage by 9 and multiply by the square of the level, which puts a 20th level character at 222gp per day.
Thanks! I will take that under advisement; I appreciate the input, and I'm sure my players will, too, so thanks from them, as well.