| Mathius |
I love the magus and I have player who wants to play one. He would really like to use a whip but he wants some house rules to make a whip better. Putting them all together I can see a nice build but tell me if this more powerful then a stock magus and stock kensai. The game ends at level 14.
Houserules
1. Whips can damage armored foes but are still non lethal.
2. Scorpion whip is a whip that does lethal.
3. Dervish dance can effect any finessable weapon.
4. Teiflings can use meta rods with a tail.
1 seams like the farthest stretch really only effects low level play. Once whip master comes onlinde it does not matter.
3 allows a whip user to take blade bound and still get dex to damage.
Below is a potential build that seams nice and uses the whip well. Black blade would add to damage quite a bit. But it does not focus on shocking grasp or frostbite much at all but would still use them. A cruel whip would give shaken and sickened all the time. Touch of fatigue allows a second attack all the time.
Maybe I am missing a build that would simply use the rules for gain and not take whip mastery. A scimitar does not need to worry about proficiency and can add 2 extra feats to build below. Intensify and daze?
Tiefling Kensai magus
Traits: old world magic (touch of fatigue) bruising intellect
s10 D18 C 14 W10 I 17 C 8
1 Ewp/WF whip..weapon finesse..enforcer
3 whip mastery
5 dervish dance
7 combat reflexes
9 improved whip mastery
11 rime spell
13 extra traits (magical linage (frost bite))
| Cyrad RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 |
1) This is fairly reasonable.
2) The difference between scorpion whip and a normal whip is that the former has only a 10 foot reach, is a light weapon, and deals lethal damage like a normal weapon.
3) I think Dervish Dancing is a too much considering he can play rather safely and get ranged spellstrikes.
4) Can't they already do that?
I'd personally just consider scorpion whips as one-handed weapons so a strength build is more appealing.
| Mathius |
I just can not see a whip as one handed weapon. Technically a scorpion whip threatens. I am okay with the 15 foot reach if they do not threaten.
Dex to damage is very nice. I just do not see why it should be scimitar only. I agree that a whip might be better then a scimitar but costs at least 3 feats to be truly useful and 4 to be flat out better. However dervish dance should only work with weapons you are proficient with.
The tail thing is debated by some. Is a rod a small object? Do you need to hold/manipulate/weild a rod? I might be generous enough to let it open a door or pick something off the ground if you take the feat to make it better. No lock picking though.
If a fighter wanted dervish dance with a whip would we say no? Just weird to me that a non finesse weapon can gain finesse and dex to damage and finesse but already finessable weapons can not.
Would letting it happen actually make the the magus more powerful then scimitar user considering the scimitar user gets to other feats that could go into things like shocking grasp or other arcana? A stock magus needs to be a kensai to use a whip well others can easily use a scimitar.
Man I sound like I have already made up my mind.
I guess the question is "Is dex to damage just plain better then other good feats (intesify, daze, extra arcana, lunge) to magus like this?" "Does it do more for this build then it does for other builds?"
This build is going to debuff to incredibly well and at range but scimitar use can do all of this do this (not at range) and SG as well.
| Mathius |
@ Imbicatus.
You can not enchant a black blade so the feat is the only way to it with that archatype and you can get it before you can afford agile weapons.
I tend to agree with you though. If retraining rules are used with this I would replace it for gold. I might wait on whip mastery till 5 and dance at 3 but invoking is bad.
Imbicatus
|
I have not looked at that source yet. Can they do dex to damage?
In the playtest, no. However, there was strong developer hints that there would be an option for DEX to damage in the release of the book.
As for the scimitar/vs whip comparison, The scimitar had the better crit profile, which really helps spellstrike.
Whip has more control options and is safer, scimitar has more damage.
Whip needs more feats, so Scimitar is a smaller investment.
I think they are pretty balanced.
blackbloodtroll
|
My DM for Kingmaker uses this feat:
Deadly Agility [Combat]
You have learned how to use your agility to greater purpose in battle.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1
Benefit: You may add your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when wielding a light weapon or a weapon that gains the benefits of the Weapon Finesse feat (such as the Rapier) when determining additional damage inflicted upon a successful attack. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is not reduced for off-hand weapons.
I don't know if he got it from somewhere, or he made it up.
| Samasboy1 |
I have not looked at that source yet. Can they do dex to damage?
Duelists and Swashbucklers use a different mechanic. You add your class level to damage when using a one handed piercing melee weapon.
I only know of Dervish Dance feat, Sword Lord PrC, and Agile weapon property to add Dex to damage.
Deadly Agility appears to be from the Path of War PFRPG supplement put out by Dreamscarred Press.
Magda Luckbender
|
@OP: You realize that he's sometimes going to use his whip with Truestrike, right? Once he can threaten with the whip at 15' he can cast Truestrike on his turn and expect to use it with an AoO. His first AoO, probably a trip attempt, will be at +20. Trip almost anything.
I'm not saying it's a problem, just mentioning it. Be prepared for him to trip spiders and dragons with 90.25% chance of success. Also, he'll sometimes use Enlarge Person to get a 70' diameter hemispherical zone of control. Be prepared for that.
| Mathius |
The enlarge person thing is kinda scary tripping dragons is kinda cool.
Anyway a guy with a scimitar can do the same thing. Trade out whip feats for trip feats and there you go.
Dang that is a big zone of control. Gonna have to prepare for that. At least there is really no way fit in whirlwind attack.
A fighter with enlarge person, WW attack, greater trip, and combat reflexes. Think I might need an NPC that does that.
Kiinyan
|
The enlarge person thing is kinda scary tripping dragons is kinda cool.
Anyway a guy with a scimitar can do the same thing. Trade out whip feats for trip feats and there you go.
Dang that is a big zone of control. Gonna have to prepare for that. At least there is really no way fit in whirlwind attack.
A fighter with enlarge person, WW attack, greater trip, and combat reflexes. Think I might need an NPC that does that.
I think I just found a new NPC for my campaign too. Except...dual wielding whips?
Hmm even better, how does whirlwind attack interact with dimensional dervish? Whirlwind attack is a full attack, and dervish just let's you teleport during it. Hmmm.
EDIT: answering the actual question.
1. Whip master is a feat for a reason. Don't give him free feats.
2. This has always been my opinion of the scorpion whip, but I know others disagree. They really should errata the specifics of this thing.
3. Should be a thing, isn't a thing. I'd go with the feat blackbloodtroll has posted. Dex to damage isn't worth a mythic feat, and I don't know why it's such a penalized build style.
4. I would say a rod has to be manipulated, and must therefore be in hand to use.
| Mathius |
So it seams that no one really has a big issue with 2 or 3.
The tail seams mostly useless as is but it might be to much to let a magus use rods before the get that glove.
Whip master is still worth it to knock of the AoO and for lethal. Since a scorpion whip allows is useable at 1st all this house rule really allows is the enforcer feat at first. Is that to much? It may be.
Two shot from a whip is unlikely to kill anything at first while to from a scimitar might. A str build can do it easily while the dex build needs that +1 from magic that magus adds. Average is 9 and max is 14 while a whip will average 6 and max at 9. Dead is better the shaken but he can nail 2 with it from safety. Could this be to much at 1st and 2nd level. It is moot by 3rd.
FrodoOf9Fingers
|
The whip master builds for a Kensai are not the most optimal. I find they are great when there is a lot of movement in combat for AoO reasons, but the scimitar deals more damage and it doesn't soak up tons of feats. From a power gamer's perspective, I would use mostly Frostbite, due to the large amounts of attacks I will be making and the debuff potential. That is probably the best route to take to maximize damage.
As a DM, it's really easy to change your encounters slightly to tone down how well your player is fighting. He won't be getting AoO's with a whip until later, and cover will be a pain when he does. Frostbite can be easily toned down by having monsters immune to non-lethal damage. Not being in melee while casting can be countered with ranged attackers, such as an archer readying an action to shoot him if he casts a spell. (His touch AC will be really high, so using ranged touch attacks for this purpose won't be the most effective). Finally, using concealment can force his character to go into melee (such as from obscuring mist).
Though, naturally, you should throw in an encounter or two over the course of this character's life tailored made to allow this character to rock :), every player loves to shine at times.
| Remy Balster |
4. I would say a rod has to be manipulated, and must therefore be in hand to use.
Manipulating an object is a move action though. Certainly you don't require people to use move actions whenever they use a rod... so why force that on a tiefling with a tail?
Meta Rods simply need to be held.