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As shown from the many Rogue threads out there, the Rogue isn't generally considered to be very good at Rogue things. Bards are blatantly superior in most social situations due to being only slightly behind in skill points and having a huge advantage via spellcasting, Rangers can easily fill most skill monkey roles (including trap finder) while still being a very effective full martial; even the Rogue's iconic sneak attack has been eclipsed by a Vivisectionist carrying invisibility extracts. That sneak attack is the Rogue's only real combat boost... which does nothing but effect damage. I dunno about you, but having your role in combat being "compete with the Barbarian for damage" doesn't seem very roguey to me. Or smart.
So, the Rogue really needs a role. I propose debuffs, primarily through the use of dirty tricks. Martial debuffers don't really exist outside of Lore Wardens and Underfoot Adepts tripping people up with Fauchards and Temple Swords, and tripping is a strategy that can't stick around due to the existence of fliers, legless creatures, and just things that are really freaking huge. Dirty Tricks are different; they work on anything as long as you can beat their CMD... But unfortunately you can't use your weapons to perform Dirty Tricks, meaning no enchantment bonus to the maneuver and an even harder time hitting that daunting late game CMD. So we're going to make that a Rogue class feature, because there's very little in this world that is more Roguey than stabbing someone in the eye.
Roguish Maneuvers: Starting at 2nd level, a Rogue uses her Rogue level in place of her base attack bonus when calculating CMB and CMD. In addition, she receives a +2 bonus to CMB and CMD. This bonus increases to +4 at 6th level, +6 at 10th level, +8 at 14th level, and +10 at 18th level.
At 2nd level, a Rogue receives Improved Dirty Trick as a bonus feat. She may take Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, and Improved Steal as rogue talents, even if she does not meet the prerequisites. A Rogue of 2nd level or higher may use any light or 1-handed melee weapon to perform Dirty Trick maneuvers.
At 6th level, a Rogue receives Greater Dirty Trick as a bonus feat. She may take Greater Trip, Greater Disarm, and Greater Steal as rogue talents. In order to take a maneuver feat as a talent, the Rogue only needs to have the prior maneuver feat in the chain and not the other prerequisites. A Rogue of 6th level or higher may use a ranged or throwing weapon to perform Dirty Trick maneuvers. The Rogue must be within range to perform a sneak attack in order to use a ranged weapon in this manner (30 ft, or more if the Rogue's sneak attack distance has been improved in some way). The Rogue uses a CMB check to determine if the attack hits as normal for a maneuver. A hit does not do damage; it only applies the effects of the Dirty Trick.
At 10th level, a Rogue receives Dirty Trick Master as a bonus feat. She may take Tripping Strike, Disarming Strike, and Quick Steal as advanced rogue talents. In order to take a maneuver feat as a talent, the Rogue only needs to have the prior maneuver feat in the chain and not the other prerequisites. A Rogue of 10th level or higher is treated as having the effects of the mirror image spell by any foe under the effects of her Dirty Tricks. The affected foe always sees a maximum of 2 images in addition to the Rogue herself. This effect ends when the Dirty Trick does, but is refreshed if another Dirty Trick is successfully performed (so if a foe removes one image and is then hit with another Dirty Trick they will see two extra images again).
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tl;dr: The Rogue gets pseudo-full BAB for CMB (it could be full BAB, but I don't think this Rogue needs it because she's not trying to do damage) and a Lore Warden's CMB boosts. She gets Dirty Trick feats for free and can take other roguish maneuvers as rogue talents, without Combat Expertise or 13 Int. The Rogue is flat out better at Dirty Tricks than any other class can hope to be, getting the enchantment boost, eventually being able to use it at range, and finally adding Mirror Image to the number of things she can use to screw enemies over. The downside is that with this role she's competing with the Witch, but frankly if someone says "I want to play a debuffer but I really don't want to bother with spells" and you can say with confidence "play a Rogue" that is good enough for me.
I also had an idea related to giving the Rogue a reason to invest in charisma, but it's nothing new and pretty uninspired.
Swagger: A Rogue may add her Charisma modifier instead of her Wisdom modifier to will saves. Starting at 5th level, she may reroll a failed skill check or saving throw a number of times per day equal to her charisma modifier. The Rogue cannot use this ability more than once on a roll.
Finally, something that's more flavorful than helpful but would feel awesome when it comes up:
Never Tell Me The Odds: At 10th level, a Rogue treats any natural 1 as a natural 20.
So... discuss. Comments, questions, concerns, etc. Hasn't been playtested or anything, most of this was just today's on-the-job daydream. All of this would be in addition to what the Rogue already gets, of course.
I think Never Tell Me the Odds should allow the re-rolling of natural 1s instead. Other than that? This is totally cool. I actually really love these changes. Also, how do you like this change to the Finesse Rogue talent?
Finesse Rogue: A rogue that selects this talent gains Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers as bonus feats.
I think this synergies well with what you want.
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I think that's great; in a way, it would help put Halflings back in their traditional role as the go-to race for Rogues since you rely almost exclusively on dexterity and charisma.
I really like NTMTO as it is. If it only allowed a reroll the potential for failure is still there, and the Rogue can already reroll with Swagger. As currently written it's something that the rest of your table will probably forget you have until it comes up, but when it does you're the hero. When your GM starts describing the awful things that'll happen due to your roll you can say, "No, I'm a Rogue, I don't give a damn". Being a Rogue will feel pretty cool.
Brilliant
this is pretty delightful.
I like it, but I think you are undervaluing NTMTO: doubling your chances of an automatic success (especially true as many DMs apply a nat 20 as such even when it doesn't apply) while no longer having a 1/20 chance of auto failing is super good, but I'm not complaining. Rogues need cool things.
Excellent, excellent, I enjoy these changes.
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It's cool to see people like my ideas! Thinking about it more, I agree that NTMTO is a lot stronger than I initially advertised; that being said, level 10 is when the really silly abilities start coming into play anyways so I think it's fine. While the Rogue is picking up +5% luck resistance the Barbarian is full attacking on a charge and making the wizard's spellbook a key part of a balanced breakfast.
Did some more daydreaming today and came up with a replacement for the current capstone. Sneak Attack isn't really important for this Rogue; sure, you still have it and it's going to be a lot better than the Core Rogue because you can rely on having blinded opponents all the time... But you're still a 3/4 BAB class with no bonuses to normal attacks. Why Sneak Attack when you can just lay down more status effects and give your Barbarian a very delicious target? It makes more sense for this Rogue to be boosting the true core of the class (the dirty tricks). So, I propose the following:
Sweet Mercy: At 20th level, a Rogue can perform a coup de grace as a standard action. She may perform a coup de grace against any foe affected by at least two of the following conditions: dazed, pinned, frightened, and nauseated.
Those are the worsened conditions you can cause with Dirty Trick Master, if you don't happen to be immediately aware of everything the maneuver can do. Against a 20th level Rogue, just accepting the status effects and fighting through them no longer becomes an option. A TWF Rogue can meet the prereqs for Sweet Mercy in one full attack. A foe cornered by a 20th level Rogue is given the options to waste their turn on removing a condition or be faced with near certain death the next round.
I know most capstones aren't that strong, but in my opinion they should be.
Be cautious, there is the dueling weapon property that adds up to a +10 luck bonus on CMB/CMD for disarm, dirty trick, reposition, sunder, and trip maneuvers.
A rogue with the above would be an absolute monster with the above weapon property.
At higher levels (say 15th) you're looking at the Rogue able to pull of a Dirty Trick at 15 + 4 (feats) + 8 (RM) + 5 (weapon) + 10 (dueling) = +42 before ability scores or any additional buffs (haste, bardic performance etc.)
A CR 20 Ancient Red Dragon has a CMD of 52, meaning the Rogue has a 50% chance of landing that dirty trick before ability scores or buff spells. I chose the dragon at random, but the thing to remember is that the Dragon is 5 CR above the Rogue, so that Rogue will probably auto-land his dirty trick on probably anyone near his level.
Even without the Dueling property, he's sitting on a +32 bonus, which, when you factor in ability scores and other buffs, mean he still has good odds of landing that Dirty Trick.
This is very important, because the Rogue could land Dirty Trick (dazzled) and then, the following round, land Dirty Trick (dazed) due to Dirty Trick Master. This means the Rogue will be able to completely shut down enemies by keeping them daze-locked.
If you're okay with your rogues being able to completely shut down enemies at +10th level, then I think you're golden.
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I would personally say adding Dirty Trick Master is a bit much at 10th level, and would go for something more like Imp. Dirty Trick > Quick Dirty Trick > Greater Dirty Trick, this forces the Rogue to actually dedicate a feat to Dirty Trick Master, but I might add something like: "A rogue may use his his class level to qualify for combat maneuver feats with a base attack bonus. A multiclass rogue adds his rogue level to his base attack bonus from other classes when determining whether or not he qualifies."
This would let the Rogue qualify at 11th level like all of the other full BAB classes. It's a minor thing, sure, but I think it's important that the Rogue actually uses a resource to acquire what is arguably one of the most powerful combat maneuver related feats in the game.
Treat a natural 1 as a natural 20? Any character I'd play would be unstoppable. I roll a natural 1 so much that other people I play take notice. Give me a vorpal weapon and I'm all set.
I do like what you've written here though. It honestly feels very rogue-ish which is a damn sight better than the standard rogue.
Be cautious, there is the dueling weapon property that adds up to a +10 luck bonus on CMB/CMD for disarm, dirty trick, reposition, sunder, and trip maneuvers.
A rogue with the above would be an absolute monster with the above weapon property.
At higher levels (say 15th) you're looking at the Rogue able to pull of a Dirty Trick at 15 + 4 (feats) + 8 (RM) + 5 (weapon) + 10 (dueling) = +42 before ability scores or any additional buffs (haste, bardic performance etc.)
A CR 20 Ancient Red Dragon has a CMD of 52, meaning the Rogue has a 50% chance of landing that dirty trick before ability scores or buff spells. I chose the dragon at random, but the thing to remember is that the Dragon is 5 CR above the Rogue, so that Rogue will probably auto-land his dirty trick on probably anyone near his level.
Even without the Dueling property, he's sitting on a +32 bonus, which, when you factor in ability scores and other buffs, mean he still has good odds of landing that Dirty Trick.
This is very important, because the Rogue could land Dirty Trick (dazzled) and then, the following round, land Dirty Trick (dazed) due to Dirty Trick Master. This means the Rogue will be able to completely shut down enemies by keeping them daze-locked.
If you're okay with your rogues being able to completely shut down enemies at +10th level, then I think you're golden.
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I would personally say adding Dirty Trick Master is a bit much at 10th level, and would go for something more like Imp. Dirty Trick > Quick Dirty Trick > Greater Dirty Trick, this forces the Rogue to actually dedicate a feat to Dirty Trick Master, but I might add something like: "A rogue may use his his class level to qualify for combat maneuver feats with a base attack bonus. A multiclass rogue adds his rogue level to his base attack bonus from other classes when determining whether or not he qualifies."
This would let the Rogue qualify at 11th level like...
it was changed to this in ultimate equipment.
...Be cautious, there is the dueling weapon property that adds up to a +10 luck bonus on CMB/CMD for disarm, dirty trick, reposition, sunder, and trip maneuvers.
A rogue with the above would be an absolute monster with the above weapon property.
At higher levels (say 15th) you're looking at the Rogue able to pull of a Dirty Trick at 15 + 4 (feats) + 8 (RM) + 5 (weapon) + 10 (dueling) = +42 before ability scores or any additional buffs (haste, bardic performance etc.)
A CR 20 Ancient Red Dragon has a CMD of 52, meaning the Rogue has a 50% chance of landing that dirty trick before ability scores or buff spells. I chose the dragon at random, but the thing to remember is that the Dragon is 5 CR above the Rogue, so that Rogue will probably auto-land his dirty trick on probably anyone near his level.
Even without the Dueling property, he's sitting on a +32 bonus, which, when you factor in ability scores and other buffs, mean he still has good odds of landing that Dirty Trick.
This is very important, because the Rogue could land Dirty Trick (dazzled) and then, the following round, land Dirty Trick (dazed) due to Dirty Trick Master. This means the Rogue will be able to completely shut down enemies by keeping them daze-locked.
If you're okay with your rogues being able to completely shut down enemies at +10th level, then I think you're golden.
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I would personally say adding Dirty Trick Master is a bit much at 10th level, and would go for something more like Imp. Dirty Trick > Quick Dirty Trick > Greater Dirty Trick, this forces the Rogue to actually dedicate a feat to Dirty Trick Master, but I might add something like: "A rogue may use his his class level to qualify for combat maneuver feats with a base attack bonus. A multiclass rogue adds his rogue level to his base attack bonus from other classes when determining whether or not he qualifies."
This would let the Rogue
Actually, that dueling property came out in the Advanced Player's Guide, while the one I linked came out in the Pathfinder Society Field Guide and is considered part of the 'Core Rules' for Pathfinder Society.