What If: Organization of Classes By Casting vs BAB

[DualJay]

Ok, first of all: this is just an idea that came to me.

The basics are this:

Non-casters or four-level casters have full (fighter) BAB and lots of "sweets": This primarily just means monks and rogues have full BAB. Example sweets are rogue talents, which need reworking; rage powers, which are radical; and paladin/rangers being able to cast.

Six-level casters have 3/4 (cleric) BAB and some "sweets": I believe all six-level casters have that anyways, but yeah. Example sweets are the bardic performance, bombs/mutagens, and the eidolon.

Nine-level casters have 1/2 (wizard) BAB and few "sweets": The major change is that druids and clerics now have 1/2 BAB. Example sweets would be domains, bloodlines, and schools.

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Apparent issues:
- Wild Shape seems too strong for a 9-level caster's sweets.
- No more front-line clerics. I point you to the warpriest.
- That's all that spring to my mind.

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So yeah, no idea if this would be balanced in actual play, just something that sprang to mind.

Discuss Thoughts?

[Ciaran Barnes]

Whether or not it worked out that way, I think your proposal is the way things were already intended to be. The problem is that different people weight options differently.

For example, the fighter's bonus feats are supposed to be worth more than a ranger's bonus feats because those rely on wearing certain armor and choosing from a list. The fighter's feats only stipulate that they are combat feats. Does it actually balance things out? Probably not, because its easy to obey the stipulations and still work your build. Still, it seems that class feature versatility is considered by the designers to be on par with specializing. However, in the long run such versatility works for the wizard better than it does the fighter.

In a similar fashion, the versatility of a rogue's 8 skill points and large skill list is intended to be a great boon, but it doesn't always seem to work out that way (read any of the 1812 threads on the subject).

A class like the druid has more clearly defined flavor and more specialized class features.

Game design is difficult, and you're not going to find a single standard to make everyone happy.

[Cyrad]

Like Ciaran Barnes says, the designers weighed the value of options differently than many members of this community when balancing classes. That being said, I also do feel that 4-level/non-casters should have full BAB. 3/4 BAB should be reserved for gish classes with 6 or higher spellcasting capability.

The reason clerics and druids can get away with 9-levels is because divine spell lists have much less versatility and raw power than arcane spell lists. The warpriest may have 6-levels, but they can get a full BAB progression. While the warpriest has better spellcasting, the paladin has way better "sweets," so it evens out.

[Atarlost]

The divine spell lists are mostly far less powerful than the arcane lists.

In spite of having medium BAB, wildshape, and an extra good save the druid is generally considered weaker than the wizard.

Apart from summoning the Cleric is generally considered on par with the bard. The common strong cleric build is a wannabe fighter because their spell list just doesn't have the sorts of spells needed to be primarily a caster.

Without medium BAB and in the druid's case wildshape they just wouldn't be viable classes. CRB only the cleric would be a tax class to make one person at the table bored for the greater good, but if the APG is allowed the witch does the healer job while having actual useful spells and hexes.

Additionally, the way spell save DCs work currently only 9 level casters can cast offensively at par and even then only using their highest level slots. If spell DCs were decoupled from spell level and the current 9 level divine lists were compressed into 6 level lists as strong as the bard or magus list you could link BAB to casting.

And before you cite the inquisitor and war priest note that they have about twice the goodies of their arcane peers. Inquisitor gets judgement and bane, either of which alone is comparable to inspire courage or weapon boosting with arcane pool. War Priest gets pseudo-full BAB and scaling weapon dice.

[akolbi]

Atarlost wrote:

Apart from summoning the Cleric is generally considered on par with the bard. The common strong cleric build is a wannabe fighter because their spell list just doesn't have the sorts of spells needed to be primarily a caster... CRB only the cleric would be a tax class to make one person at the table bored for the greater good

umm. about that.

CRB cleric gets wind wall, entropic shield, obscuring mist, death knell, enthrall, hold person, spiritual weapon, resist energy, all of the <animal>'s <trait> buffs, zone of truth, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, contagian, daylight(vampires), darkness/deeper darkness(if party has darkvision, dispel magic, invisibility purge, magiv vestiment, prayer, bless, bane, protection from energy, searing light(undead again), water walk, and THAT is just CRB up to 3rd level.

most of those synergize well with melee, ALL of them are more than a "tax class". I'm sorry, but i just couldn't stand to see the divine spell list relegated to being second-rate, or even worthless. clerics are often able to be a better fighter than a fighter is.

[Nathanael Love]

Sure . . . cleric can be a better fighter than fighter at a certain level after spending four rounds buffing. . .for a few rounds. . .